Cormacs Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Hi all, So far I'm just a newbie with the insteon and ISY networking. I have been learning a lot with it and can't get enough. I'm slowly trying to make absolutely everything I have somehow insteon controlled. My new project I'm trying to tackle is my sump pumps. My house sits in an area with a high water table and I have a LOT of water that has to be pumped out of my sump pit every spring and early summer. So because of this I run a primary and back-up sump pump for peace of mind. I just ordered two outlet linc's for the sump pump outlets. I ordered two because each pump is powered by a different breaker, again for peace of mind. My question is I was thinking of getting an EZIO8 and having two water level sensors wired to it and in turn it would switch on the different pumps. One sensor and a normal operational level that would turn on the primary pump and then a second sensor at a higher "error" level that would then turn on the second pump and send an alert. My question I have been doing some research on the EZIO8 and from what I have read is it is unreliable. The last thing I want to do is add an unreliable device to control an important device. So I ask is the EZIO8 all that unreliable? I would like the pumps controlled that way because not only is insteon control cool but I could always intervene with programs and remote control for what ever reason. If the EZIO8 is unreliable are there any other I/O devices that are better? I was curious about the EZIO8 mainly because to start I would need 2 inputs right off the bat for the two level sensors, but it would leave me more inputs and outputs to expand down the road. What do you experts think?
Teken Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 I can tell you from personal experience you better pass on automating the power control to the sump pump. I would suggest you use Insteon to monitor, alert, and do something else. Don't use Insteon to power the pump. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
larryllix Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) I can tell you from personal experience you better pass on automating the power control to the sump pump. I would suggest you use Insteon to monitor, alert, and do something else. Don't use Insteon to power the pump. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Agreed! Just turn both pumps on and set one float switch level higher than the other so that one always gets used and the other only gets used if the first fails. Rotate them every few years for even wear and verification of life or just check them every few months and exercise the mechanism by hand. If Insteon fails you could have a problem you were trying to avoid. Adding technology always makes it less reliable. Adding to what Teken advised, get a plug-in SynchroLinc monitor for the higher level float unit and if it ever turns on your ISY will know the first pump failed. https://www.aartech.ca/2423a5-smarthome-insteon-synchro-linc.html Editted: for level logic. Edited January 5, 2015 by larryllix
MWareman Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 I use Insteon leak monitors to monitor for leaks - and my sump backup has a dry output for reporting issues via my Elk. I fully agree with @Teken - don't automate your sump with Insteon. An all-on event or worse - a relay gone bad in the EZIO8 could cause a flooded basement. Just not worth it. Monitoring, fine. Control - leave that to a redundant pair of float switches.
Teken Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 OP, All of us were right there where you are now. You get the HA bug and you try to think about all the things you want to automate and make life easier. Nothing wrong with that, so long as you fully understand the limitations and potential risks involved. Insteon has never been endorsed or sold as a life saving, security, or risk management solution. Insteon is a great secondary solution for a primary system in place. If there was ever a time the KISS principle applied it would be in this situation. Given you already know seasonal rains brings lots of water that must be evacuated from the sump do you really want to come home to find out a surge event locked up the outlet?? There are also a few people who are dealing with a ALL ON / ALL OFF situation which I hope you never experience. Imagine if the system turned off both outlets when rainy season was upon you? The only three things I ever suggest and recommend is: Install a Type 3 surge outlet in place, install a back up sump pump, install a battery back up system in case of a power failure. Using any combination of Insteon you can receive alert notifications and have the system react and do something else. It doesn't matter if it turns on a siren, strobe, light, telephone you, sms, e-mail.
Cormacs Posted January 5, 2015 Author Posted January 5, 2015 I wasn't over concerned about them failing short term. I have a 12 volt pump beside these two pumps that run off a deep cycle battery. Either one alone of the three pumps is capable of evacuating the pit. So if the two insteon controlled pumps were to fail the 12 volt system would kick on which I would notice when I returned home. But all this talk about the insteons reliability has made me think twice. My idea was to have the insteon control the pumps that way I could set a program to swap out the pumps automatically to keep exercising the pumps. That's way neither pump would sit unused for a extended period of time. Maybe I will just monitor them with a shyncro link. Thanks for all the advice.
Teken Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 I wasn't over concerned about them failing short term. I have a 12 volt pump beside these two pumps that run off a deep cycle battery. Either one alone of the three pumps is capable of evacuating the pit. So if the two insteon controlled pumps were to fail the 12 volt system would kick on which I would notice when I returned home. But all this talk about the insteons reliability has made me think twice. My idea was to have the insteon control the pumps that way I could set a program to swap out the pumps automatically to keep exercising the pumps. That's way neither pump would sit unused for a extended period of time. Maybe I will just monitor them with a shyncro link. Thanks for all the advice. Insteon over the years has improved their QA since launch. Having said this you need to know the actual current draw of the sump pump motor and this does not take into account the starting current. In rush current to start a pump can be five times the normal duty cycle for the briefest of seconds. This along with CEMF (counter electro magnetic field) are what kill sensitive electronics when the field collapses. I know the latest dual outlet is made sturdier than its previous generation brother. But, there is no guarantee that large spikes and in rush current will not cause a lock up.
Cormacs Posted January 5, 2015 Author Posted January 5, 2015 I so far have been very lucky with all of my insteon items. All I have really played with is micro dimmers, switchlinc dimmers, and keypadlinc dimmers. So far haven't had any failures or glitches. I'll go knock on wood as I try to find something else to control with an insteon device.
stusviews Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 It seems that you have a backup for your backup. As long as you have a reliable backup pump, you should be fine with your original intent to rotate scheduling of the two line voltage pumps using Insteon devices and the ISY
Cormacs Posted January 6, 2015 Author Posted January 6, 2015 I was just in the process of ordering two synchrolincs but it appears the smart home site crashed on me. I'm just going to use two synchrolincs as suggested. I may still end up getting an EZIO8 and have it use a few float sensors to monitor the efficiency of the pumps.
larryllix Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 One SynchroLinc was suggested but as Stusviews stated, you already have a battery backed up pump and this would allow you to play safely. Here is scheme I would use. - Get one SynchroLinc and one ApplianceLinc module - Plug one pump into each. - Set the pump with the SynchroLinc float to initiate at a higher water level so that it should never be activated unless the ApplianceLinc pump fails. - Write programs to detect if the SynchroLinc pump ever kicks in, then the ApplianceLinc pump has failed and notify help. - To exercise the SynchroLinc pump you could block the ApplianceLinc pump occasionally, (make it fail) via ISY schedules, and not only exercise the SynchroLinc pump but also verify, via ISY programs, that it still functions by detecting it's current levels. The ApplianceLinc modules have a fairly heavy contact rating on them. 1HP / 1800 Watts and should switch a sump pump quite easily. https://www.aartech.ca/2635-222-insteon-appliance-module.html
EricK Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I use a float switch in the koi pond connected to an io linc to alert us if the water level gets low. If so, the pump, which is connected to an io linc gets turned off. Opposite of what you want, but an option.
stusviews Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 A SynchroLinc for each, a message sent, and even a device or KPL button turning on. No need to rely on relays, no wires to run.
Cormacs Posted January 6, 2015 Author Posted January 6, 2015 Anyone else having issues with the smarthome website? I'm trying to go shopping but having no luck. Even the phone number says unreachable.
Brian H Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) I can't say about the sales pages. I can verify almost all of the links the developers use. Are now giving an error 404 page not found error. With a message they are getting ready for some big improvements. I just went to the sales site and it seemed to be running OK now. Maybe it is now corrected. Edited January 6, 2015 by Brian H
Cormacs Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 I find if you wait long enough it will load the home page. But when you go to sign in it does nothing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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