Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hi everyone, I have a minor issue with my network I hope someone can help me with. I have my entire house running insteon dual band devices and they work great. In order to explain my issue I will have to give you my floor plan a little. My house sits on a long property 700 feet long. My house is in the one corner, going out one direction I have a dog kennel about 200 feet away, going out the other direction from the house I have a power post with a flood light on it about 150 feet from the house. In the dog keneel I have a couple dual band insteon devices for the exterior lights and the heated water bowls and such. On the power post I have a couple of dual band insteon devices to run the flood lights and a plug for my block heater. Now that you know my layout, here is my issue. My flood lights on the power post intermittently have a communication issue and don't turn on or off with a scene they are a part of. My dog house the exterior lights intermittently don't work either. These communications are very intermittent and I somewhat expect them due to the distance they are from the house. My question is, is there no way that I can make the isy confirm that the devices received their command? I ran the even viewer and was able to catch the odd time they don't work. The isy sends the command but the fixture doesn't receive it. I assume the isy just assumes the device receives the command because the isy shows it as on even though the device didn't turn on. If I query the device the state changes back to off. It's very intermittent so If the isy would just try one more time it would probably work. Is there anyway to make the isy confirm receipt of commands? Link to comment
stusviews Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 At those distances, the signal is most likely powerline only. What are the devices being controlled? Are you using only scenes to control them or are there programs? What else is connected to those circuits? Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 On the power post I have a floodlight controlled by a microdimmer, and a gfi plug controlled by an inline on/off module. In the dog kenned I have two outlet lincs and a swithclinc dimmer. oddly enough the dog house has very few issues and I believe that is due to the fact the power line running out to the dog kennel is split in the basement with an outlet that is the source of power for the plm. However the power post has a 40 amp rv panel on it with a 15 amp breaker for the flood light and gfi. I would have done the same with the power post and split it at the house to attach an insteon device to boost the signal but as far as I Know there is no 40 amp insteon devices that only run 110 votls. I was thinking of getting a boosterlinc but I didn't think they would help at those distances. I'm sure my issue with the power post is that the signals have to go through a 40 amp breaker at the main panel and then through 125 feet of 8 gauge cable and then through another 15 amp breaker before it reaches the microdimmer. Link to comment
stusviews Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 You don't need a 40 amp device. All insteon devices repeat the powerline signal. Install any Insteon device such as an In-LineLinc on the circuit of concern in/at the panel. Cap the load wire. BTW, only one wire is permitted to be under a circuit breaker screw, but you can pigtail that one wire to the Insteon and the load (circuit). Where does the 8 AWG cable terminate? AFAIK, there are no Insteon boosters. The product called BoosterLinc is for X10 only. Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 my only concern is an in-linelinc is rated for 20 amps, If I tie it into the 8 gauge wire on the 40 amp run it would be capable of receiving 40 amps. that would potentially cause a fire hazard. The 8 gauge wire runs from a 40 amp breaker in the main breakerbox of the house outside underground 100 feet away from the house to a rv breaker panel. On the RV breaker panel there is a 30 amp, 20 amp, and a 15 amp breaker. The 30 amp breaker is for the RV which is has no insteon involvement. The 20 amp breaker has an in-linelinc on/off module attached to it feeding a 20 amp GFI outlet. The 15 amp breaker has a microdimer module feeding a floodlight. I have no doubt most of my communication issues would be resolved if I could indeed splice in a inline linc or something similar, my only concern is tieing a 15 amp or 20 amp device into a 40 amp circuit. I would love to find a hardware solution to make it work 100% of the time but I fear it may not be possible due to the extreme distances. That's why I wish I could make a way so that the ISY could confirm it's command was received and re-send if it hadn't been. Link to comment
LeeG Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 To have confirmation requires a Direct command (not a Scene). Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 How would I accomplish this. Having the program control the device directly? Right now I have a scene for the post light because I have a kpl that controls it as well. The scene has the kpl controlling the microdimmer on the flood light. So if the program controlled the two devices separately instead of their scene would the isy keep trying until it succeeded? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
stusviews Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 A 40 amp breaker does not mean that it will "push" 40 amps into any connected device. If that were true, then your 100 or 200 amp service would 'blow up" everything connected to it that couldn't handle 100 or 200 amps. A 40 amp breaker means that it can support up to a 40 amp load. The same confusion exists with non-powered speakers. A 100 watt (non-powered) speaker will not output 100 watts of sound if it's connected to a 30 watt amplifier. The rating means it can handle up to a 100 watt amplifier. All you need to do is power any dual-band device from the same leg of the split, single-phase electric supply at each end (panel) of the run. Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 I understand the fact the 40 amp breaker will not "push" 40 amp however the inline link modules only come with 12 gauge wire rated at 20 amps. If their was an internal failure causing a short the 40 amp breaker will not fail but the 12 gauge wire will fail. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 According to electrical code the breaker must always be the weakest link in the leg with external non hard wired devices being the exception. If I were to hard wire the insteon device to the 40 amp breaker it would be the weak link. It is very unlikely the insteon device would fail in such away but it would still violate electrical code. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
LeeG Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 The KPL has retry so changing to a Program issued Direct command would not have benefit. A program could be triggered by the KPL button press and check the Status of the device that should have been controlled by the KPL. Some sort of Direct command retry to failing device until it reacts as wanted (or some maximum retry count). Link to comment
stusviews Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 The Insteon device is not wired to the 40 amp breaker. It is wired to the same leg of electric supply as is the panel that the 40 amp breaker supplies. I am familiar with the National Electric Code (NEC) as well as the Canadian Electric Code (CSA). What I am suggesting is in compliance with both codes. Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 I guess I'll just leave it as is. The light only fails to react maybe once a week. I have a program that turns is off as I get home and one that turns it off when I leave. Otherwise I use the kpl to turn it on and off and I have never noticed it fail when using the kpl yet. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Regardless of where it is attached to the leg it is still protected by a 40 amp breaker. The 12 gauge wire of the insteon device according to code is required to be no higher then a 20 amp breaker. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
stusviews Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 None of my posts even implied connecting an Insteon device to the 40 amp breaker, none!!! Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 I assumed in post 8 you saying to install a insteon device on the circuit in question. Meant placing the device on the 40 amp circuit as that is the circuit in question. Then when you explained that a 40 amp breaker doesn't push 40 amps it reinforced that thought in my head. Sorry for the confusion. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 For the insteon commands to get to the microdimmer that is having the issue it has to travel 100 feet away from the closest access point. The power gets to the microdimmer over 100 feet of 8 gauge wire that is protected by a 40 amp breaker. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
stusviews Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Is the 40 amp breaker a single-pole or double-pole breaker? Double-pole breakers are those that are two circuit breakers yoked together. Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 It is a single pole breaker. The rv doesn't run 220. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
larryllix Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 The number of retries can be set for any device using direct communications as LeeG suggested. Dump the scenes and write the device settings into a program for each "scene". Right click on each device and select Advanced | PLM Communications to see the settings. This does not apply to scenes. Regarding Stu's comments: I think what Stu is trying to say is to install another dual-band (repeating) device on the other line of the panel that is the same line as the 40A breaker. You may not have a good signal on the line of your panel feeding the 40A breaker to the post light. This could be done on a nearby receptacle using a 15A breaker on the same line (phase) so no code rules are broken. Stu likes to call the two lines (phases) of a single-phase supply, "legs", not to be confused with "breaker circuit". Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 I already have multiple dual band devices on both phases of the panel. I'm certain the problem is that not only does it have to travel 100 feet but it has to go through two load centres to reach the post light. I wish I could get another dual band device on the 40 amp leg before it leaves the house but insteon does not make any 40 amp devices. I will try changing my program as you suggested. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Call me crazy, but it seems like it works better if I use it in a scene of more devices. The only program that I seemed to have an issue with it was when it tried to turn it on with the scene that is just the light and it's kpl. I also have another scene that controls it called "outside lights". in that scene it has all my outside lights consisting of about 8 dual band devices. If I change my program to turn the outside lights scene on it seems to always work. When the program tries to turn just the post light scene on I get the odd time it doesn't come on. So I will keep it like that and see if it solves my problem. Link to comment
stusviews Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Stu likes to call the two lines (phases) of a single-phase supply, "legs", not to be confused with "breaker circuit". I refer to the lines as legs because the electric supply is single-phase. As such, calling them phases is actually incorrect. Another term for legs is "sides," usually labeled side A and side B. The opposite legs (or sides) of the single-phase electric supply are 180º out-of-phase with each other, that is, at any instant the flow of current in one leg is in the opposite direction from the other leg. In the America's, the direction of the current flow changes 60 times per second (60Hz), thus it's referred to as alternating current (AC) as opposed to direct current (DC) where the direction never changes. A phase-coupler bridges the opposite legs of the single-phase electric supply. There was two-phase electric power that was phased out (pun intended) during the early 1900's. Currently, a few rural areas and the city of Philadelphia are the only places where two-phase power exists. BTW, two-phase power has both two line wires and two neutral wires. IMHO, once someone is aware of the correct terminology, they should use it Link to comment
Cormacs Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 We currently are running multi-phase power. Most house in our area running higher than 100 amp service runs multiple phases not just a split phase. I live in a rural farm area and my house was converted from an old general store/cheese factory. Most houses in this area were converted from other uses other than residential. Therefore most of them are still using the old multi-phase system. I worked with an electrician as an apprentice for 2 years and a leg was always used to refer to the hot side of a circuit. When ever we refered to the two lines of the phase it was always that a "line". I suppose the two splits in the phase going to the panel could be considered legs of the circuit running to the panel. But it wouldn't have been my first thought. Regardless we are getting off topic. I seem to have solved my issue. Using the light in question in a scene with multiple devices seems to be making it more stable. I thank everyone for all the suggestions and help.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
larryllix Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Devices are marked "Line 1", "Line 2", and neutral. No Electrician, Engineer or engineering text ever referred to a line as a "leg" in my contacts so that terminology is undefined for my background. I spent 34 years doing phasor analysis proving legal metering systems and grid power systems. As I told you previously, terminology is culture dependant. I'll leave this one with y'all. I have four different lines and usually with two different phases in my house. Link to comment
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