Brian H Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 This morning I found one of my 2443 Hardware 2.5 Access Points locked up. It would not show any indications of receiving or sending commands in the Beacon tests. Beacon tests from other Dual Band modules. Known to be in range of the Access Point and previously passed the Beacon test. Showed no LED actions. Starting the Beacon test from the problem Access Point showed none of the other Dual Band devices had LED indications of reception. That they did in earlier days. I power cycled the Access Point module and now it is back to its normal pattern of LED indications on my other Dual Band modules. The 2443 hardware 2 modules are built on the same main board as the problem 2413S PLMs. So I maybe seeing an early indication of power supply issues with capacitors. The unregulated 12 volts did look normal. So it may have just hiccuped. Will be testing periodically to see if it again goes deaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 This morning I found one of my 2443 Hardware 2.5 Access Points locked up. It would not show any indications of receiving or sending commands in the Beacon tests. Beacon tests from other Dual Band modules. Known to be in range of the Access Point and previously passed the Beacon test. Showed no LED actions. Starting the Beacon test from the problem Access Point showed none of the other Dual Band devices had LED indications of reception. That they did in earlier days. I power cycled the Access Point module and now it is back to its normal pattern of LED indications on my other Dual Band modules. The 2443 hardware 2 modules are built on the same main board as the problem 2413S PLMs. So I maybe seeing an early indication of power supply issues with capacitors. The unregulated 12 volts did look normal. So it may have just hiccuped. Will be testing periodically to see if it again goes deaf. I can't honestly say I have ever heard of a AP going bad or locking up? Its surprising given what you noted the 2443 AP is based on the same 2413S PLM so one would think the bad caps would show up also. To date I have not seen any of my AP's show this short life or lock up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Funny, One of my half failed yesterday. I was having problems with comms to many devices yesterday and quickly realized I had lost bridging. Upon inspection I found one access point that will receive but not transmit. Luckily my phase bridge is in close proximity to my 2413S PLM so I was able to move the remaining good AP to the opposite phase and complete the bridge via the PLM. I opened up the bad AP and see no indication of bulging caps or burnt components. Looks like the radio may have just failed. Going to order a Lamplinc to replace that failed AP with. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Funny, One of my half failed yesterday. I was having problems with comms to many devices yesterday and quickly realized I had lost bridging. Upon inspection I found one access point that will receive but not transmit. Luckily my phase bridge is in close proximity to my 2413S PLM so I was able to move the remaining good AP to the opposite phase and complete the bridge via the PLM. I opened up the bad AP and see no indication of bulging caps or burnt components. Looks like the radio may have just failed. Going to order a Lamplinc to replace that failed AP with. -Xathros Xathros, Too funny! Isn't it always odd when life mimics things in the forums? I normally gravitate to using AP / Range Extenders for bridging an Insteon network. But, as time went on having a lamp linc offered more dual use in areas more traveled etc. The primary benefit of the AP / Range Extender is the extra 50 feet which might come into play for those stretching the RF limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bipto Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 @Teken, Xathros - Any particular reason you folks both noted a Lamplinc as an AP substitution to restore your bridging..? The way I understand it, any dual band device should serve that purpose, no..? I ask because I find myself in a similar situation where I am getting occasional, sporadic comm failures to 3 single band 2473S Outletlincs, all on the same dedicated outlet circuit. Not sure exactly what changed to bring this about, but as a quick troubleshooting measure I grabbed a spare AP and plugged it in to one the outlets knowing that I have several dual band devices on a separate lighting circuit nearby. And as I hoped / suspected, comms to the 3 problem devices are now rock solid. Given the wife's disdain for wall warts, I figured I could just replace one of my 2473S outlets with a new, dual band 2663-222 model. This would accomplish the same, would it not..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 @Teken, Xathros - Any particular reason you folks both noted a Lamplinc as an AP substitution to restore your bridging..? The way I understand it, any dual band device should serve that purpose, no..? I ask because I find myself in a similar situation where I am getting occasional, sporadic comm failures to 3 single band 2473S Outletlincs, all on the same dedicated outlet circuit. Not sure exactly what changed to bring this about, but as a quick troubleshooting measure I grabbed a spare AP and plugged it in to one the outlets knowing that I have several dual band devices on a separate lighting circuit nearby. And as I hoped / suspected, comms to the 3 problem devices are now rock solid. Given the wife's disdain for wall warts, I figured I could just replace one of my 2473S outlets with a new, dual band 2663-222 model. This would accomplish the same, would it not..? The use of the lamp linc is to have dual use where as the AP / Range Extender serves no other purpose besides bridging and coupling RF signals to power line. Any device installed into a metal JBOX will limit very much what the RF capabilities are from the Insteon device(s). All of the Insteon hardwired devices have their antennas located in the rear of the casing. This pretty much limits the RF propagation factor in doing its intended job / function. This is why we have started to see various Insteon products which you already noted like the newer dual outlet linc having a greater RF range. The Smartlabs engineers have finally realized the devices need to output a stronger signal. But, they still need to reconfigure the antenna to be front of the housing. The added bonus is you can move a lamplinc easily not so much a hardwired device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Lamplinc offers plug in dual band capability plus has a switchable outlet whereas the access point is just a plug in dual band single function device. In addition, I believe the newer Lamplincs are smaller and better looking than my old access point. Beyond that, no reason. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 To add a bit more data. The older 2443 Hardware 1.? models. Do not have the same main board. They have the older transformer type. Found in the 2412S with a RF daughter board. My new range extender that looks like the new Dual Band Lamplinc. Has a stripped of dimmer component parts. Dual Band Lamplinc board in it. Has the same FCC ID as the Dual Band Lamplinc also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 To add a bit more data. The older 2443 Hardware 1.? models. Do not have the same main board. They have the older transformer type. Found in the 2412S with a RF daughter board. My new range extender that looks like the new Dual Band Lamplinc. Has a stripped of dimmer component parts. Dual Band Lamplinc board in it. Has the same FCC ID as the Dual Band Lamplinc also. Brian H, If you have time can you try to look closely comparing the two (new) Range Extender vs the Lamp Linc and see if you can decern what component has changed to increase its RF range? As the Range Extender (RE) has a stated RF distance of 200 feet. Whereas the Lamp Linc indicates only 150 feet so I am trying to understand if this is just a small modification to the circuit to allow this. If so I want to modify a few test units to see if it allows an increase in RF range etc. I have a special use case that I want to test and trial in a location that could benefit from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bipto Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Thanks for the replies! The use of the lamp linc is to have dual use where as the AP / Range Extender serves no other purpose besides bridging and coupling RF signals to power line. Any device installed into a metal JBOX will limit very much what the RF capabilities are from the Insteon device(s). All of the Insteon hardwired devices have their antennas located in the rear of the casing. This pretty much limits the RF propagation factor in doing its intended job / function. This is why we have started to see various Insteon products which you already noted like the newer dual outlet linc having a greater RF range. The Smartlabs engineers have finally realized the devices need to output a stronger signal. But, they still need to reconfigure the antenna to be front of the housing. The added bonus is you can move a lamplinc easily not so much a hardwired device. The electrical box in question would be plastic rather than metal, but I can certain appreciate your point that the RF capabilities of box-mounted devices are likely not as good as those of plug-in modules... And I had not considered the portability benefit. The outlets in question are strategically placed under windows to control holiday candles; I was assuming that the substitution of a 2663-222 in one of their three locations would provide reliable RF comm to existing dual band devices on other circuits to serve as a bridge. This may not be the case... Lamplinc offers plug in dual band capability plus has a switchable outlet whereas the access point is just a plug in dual band single function device. In addition, I believe the newer Lamplincs are smaller and better looking than my old access point. Beyond that, no reason. -Xathros Given the dual-use capability, I would certainly opt for Lamplinc over an AP... I am hoping however, that I can satisfy the additional criteria of keeping my wife happy, which would be most easily achieved through the use of a new dual band Outletlinc... I'm toying with the idea of buying one of each and experimenting a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Thanks for the replies! The electrical box in question would be plastic rather than metal, but I can certain appreciate your point that the RF capabilities of box-mounted devices are likely not as good as those of plug-in modules... And I had not considered the portability benefit. The outlets in question are strategically placed under windows to control holiday candles; I was assuming that the substitution of a 2663-222 in one of their three locations would provide reliable RF comm to existing dual band devices on other circuits to serve as a bridge. This may not be the case... Given the dual-use capability, I would certainly opt for Lamplinc over an AP... I am hoping however, that I can satisfy the additional criteria of keeping my wife happy, which would be most easily achieved through the use of a new dual band Outletlinc... I'm toying with the idea of buying one of each and experimenting a bit... I believe you will find the new dual band dual outlet linc a fantastic addition from Insteon. Its a vast improvement over the single band unit and also consumes less energy while offering many new features not found in existing Insteon products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 Update. The Access Point I posted about. For now seems to be working OK. Its twin in the living room failed this morning. No LED actions with other dual band modules in the communications tests. Would not start a communications test to other modules. Unregulated 12 volts that normally is around 20 volts was 3.3 volts. 5 volt logic regulator powered by the 12 volts was 1.5 volts. Left the cover off and the unregulated 12 volts is slowly creeping back up and finally got high enough for it to again start or respond to communications tests. I am going to try and find a way to put the cover back on and still measure the 12 volts. Besides replacing the questionable module for now. Since the hardware revision 2.0 and above Access Point , is a base 2413 main board with no needed daughter board. I suspect it is also suffering from the same capacitor issues the 2413S PLMs experienced. They are the SAME brand and ratings used in the 2413S PLMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Did you ever figure out what makes this new AP/RE more powerful in terms of RF output when compared to the lamp linc ? Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 No I never investigated it. Since the 2457D2 and Range Extender both have the same FCC ID Number. I don't think Smartlabs can change anything with out a Class II Permissive Change Notice added to the original acceptance. I have not seen one yet. Though they did remove all the dimmer components in the ones I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 I got more sets of capacitors and replaced all of them in both modules. Both had the unregulated +12 volts around +19 volts. Now both are almost +22 volts. I also can see where someone may have issues after the capacitors are replaced. I damaged a run on C13 and had to use a small piece of wire wrap wire to bridge the busted run. Both are now back in service but will be very closely watched until I have more time on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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