Electric Hot Water Tank

[smokegrub]

I have an electric hot water tank at a remote location that I would like to turn on/off remotely using an ISY 994i IR Pro. Any advice based on experience good or bad will be appreciated.

[Teken]

I have an electric hot water tank at a remote location that I would like to turn on/off remotely using an ISY 994i IR Pro. Any advice based on experience good or bad will be appreciated.

If you're looking at the Insteon method I am hesitant to recommend the 240 controller. As it has historically proven to fail either from the click of death or simply die outright.

 

Even though I purchased two NOS units with some of the latest hardware upgrades. I have not installed the two units due to competing projects.

 

It should be noted for what ever reason the N.O vs N.C unit seems to be updated. Both are identical in hardware just a simple change in relay pin configuration from one to the other.

 

Some have suggested (Stu) a similar device can be built using the 3rd party high current relays in concert with a Insteon micro relay.

 

I almost went this route last year but couldn't pass the 240 Insteon controller set because it was only $45.XX each! ️

 

UDI has been tight lipped about their relay system which you can read about in the announcement page.

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[smokegrub]

Thanks. Does the 240 controller normally fail in the On position? I ask because that mode of failure would allow hot water to be used until repair/replacement of the controller. Failure in the Off position is entirely unacceptable.

[Teken]

Thanks. Does the 240 controller normally fail in the On position? I ask because that mode of failure would allow hot water to be used until repair/replacement of the controller. Failure in the Off position is entirely unacceptable.

You and I think alike! This is why I configured mine to N.C. operation. So it requires power to open / break the connect.

 

For a HWT I really can not understand why anyone would go the other route!

 

But to your question my understanding is with the click of death it doesn't matter which relay you have because the stupid thing continues to cycle open / close none stop!

 

This is why I waited the last five years until buying this device. Too many bugs and reliability issues but the latest hardware rev may have resolved these aging issues.

 

I may still pursue the micro relay option and place it in the same work box should this 240 controller not operate as expected.

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[Teken]

This is one of the NOS units and based on a quick check its one of the latest hardware builds they make.

 

 

This is a image of me changing the position of the relays to the desired operations.

 

 

One of the failure modes was component burn out. In this photo you can see I *Air Gapped* the resistor to ensure it wasn't touching any other components. Prior to me moving and adjusting it all of the caps were touching one another. Not good for high heat dissipation devices such as these.

 

 

Once again this massive resistor was pressed against this capacitor. This is probably one of the reasons for the click of death because as the cap dried out it started to drop voltage etc.

 

 

Planning ahead I have several higher quality relays on hand and might swap one of the units with the better relays.

 

[smokegrub]

Teken: My electrical knowledge/aptitude, if distilled, would easily reside in a thimble! Thus, I do not understand the terms NOS, N.O. and N.C.

 

If the potential exists for the unit to fail, cycling nonstop then that is a non-starter since the location is 325 miles from my home and I can't intervene.

 

Currently, no pun intended, I throw the breaker when we leave that location. The only downside to that approach is that hot water is unavailable until it is heated when we return.

[Teken]

Teken: My electrical knowledge/aptitude, if distilled, would easily reside in a thimble! Thus, I do not understand the terms NOS, N.O. and N.C.

 

If the potential exists for the unit to fail, cycling nonstop then that is a non-starter since the location is 325 miles from my home and I can't intervene.

 

Currently, no pun intended, I throw the breaker when we leave that location. The only downside to that approach is that hot water is unavailable until it is heated when we return.

 

My humble apologies in using so many abbreviations and not clarifying. NOS is (New Old Stock) that has been sitting on someone's shelf unsold for a period of time.

 

N.O. is (Normally Open) when no power is applied to the device at rest. Meaning power must be present to close the relays. N.C. is (Normally Closed) when no power is applied when the device is at rest. Meaning 120 VAC power must be applied to open the relays.

 

I honestly can not advise you to go either way with the Insteon 240 load controller as I too have not installed it. So have no real reference as to its long term reliability / durability.

 

If you're in doubt and need a robust method that is guaranteed to work with your Insteon network I would suggest going the route with a 3rd party dual pole 240 VAC relays in concert with the Insteon Micro relay device as the brains and controller. 

[smokegrub]

Will undertake some research on the dual pole 240 VAC Relay. Thanks.

[Teken]

Will undertake some research on the dual pole 240 VAC Relay. Thanks.

Go to the SH forum and search for the 240 load controller. The exact model and devices are discussed there.

 

Let us know what you ultimately decide to do and implement as I am sure the information and option will help someone else down the line.

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[smokegrub]

Okay. I did a quick review of a couple of utube videos and here is what I think I learned. 1. A contactor is a device which closes a circuit magnetically when receiving a 24 v input to the magnet. If that is correct, how does an Insteon Micro Relay device fit into the proposed strategy? It seems to me that a SmartInit EZI040 makes sense. I use one of these now to control the On/Off status of my water sprinkler system.

[Teken]

Okay. I did a quick review of a couple of utube videos and here is what I think I learned. 1. A contactor is a device which closes a circuit magnetically when receiving a 24 v input to the magnet. If that is correct, how does an Insteon Micro Relay device fit into the proposed strategy? It seems to me that a SmartInit EZI040 makes sense. I use one of these now to control the On/Off status of my water sprinkler system.

 

I am  not familiar with EZ brand so don't know if they offer a 240 VAC 30 amp comparable version. If so and you believe this product meets your needs for sure pursue this route. With respect to the dual pole relays they can come as DC or AC relays. In this case you only have one choice which is AC Relays because the Insteon Micro relay only controls AC power.

 

So essentially you would wire the Insteon Micro Relay to control the 240 dual  pole relays which in turn supplies power to the HWT.

 

Off the top of my head Stu referenced I believe a ELK relay module but I am unsure.

[Teken]

Here is the thread where a few people offered some ideas and devices to accomplish the end goal: http://forum.smarthome.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13299&SearchTerms=240,load,controller

 

Near the bottom of this thread mwester offers a link and his comments: http://forum.smarthome.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11135&SearchTerms=240,load,controller

 

This is the route I shall follow moving forward if the load controller does not operate as expected.

[DavidJ101]

Okay. I did a quick review of a couple of utube videos and here is what I think I learned. 1. A contactor is a device which closes a circuit magnetically when receiving a 24 v input to the magnet. If that is correct, how does an Insteon Micro Relay device fit into the proposed strategy? It seems to me that a SmartInit EZI040 makes sense. I use one of these now to control the On/Off status of my water sprinkler system.

This is basically correct, but the coil (magnet) doesn't have to be 24v. You can get contactors with many different coil voltages. The Elk-9200 is a high load relay thats already wired with a plug so you could use an on/off module to energize it.

[Teken]

This is basically correct, but the coil (magnet) doesn't have to be 24v. You can get contactors with many different coil voltages. The Elk-9200 is a high load relay thats already wired with a plug so you could use an on/off module to energize it.

 

This was the item I listed in the first link I believe also.

[stusviews]

You can use any Insteon On/Off device to control this relay: http://www.smarthome.com/elk-heavy-duty-relay-contactor-in-a-lockable-metal-structured-wiring-panel-enclosure.html

[smokegrub]

My thanks, again, to you guys. It sounds like an Elk 9200 and an Insteon 2635-222 are in my future. The solution is expensive, but it sounds perfect for my application. It seems evident that if the Elk fails, it fails open. That could leave us without hot water but feedback and the simplicity of the design seem to indicate such a failure has a low probabilty. If the Insteon device fails, I have a couple of backups on hand.