Key Pad Linc lights question

[pauliep]

You know when you have installed 50 Insteon devices and everything works well?  Then you install two KPL's and link them together, but the lights don't work properly when you use one to control a light and the other responds briefly and then shuts off?  Or when you use one KPL to turn on a light and then both KPL's go dim in terms of showing status via the internal LED's?

 

That is what is happening to me.  I can't figure it out and I am getting ready to rip these two KPL's out.  I know they work as I have blanked them and installed them in a single switch situation where they control the lights properly, the keypad light lights up, etc.

 

However, when I use them both to control a light, I can't get them to both show status of the light being on via the lights on the pad, and when I think I have a solution, one or the other of the lights on the pad blanks out or turns off.

 

This is getting maddening.  Can anyone help me?

 

Paul

[LeeG]

The non-load KPL requires a Line and Neutral connection with the Red load wire capped.

 

The load KPL requires a Line and Neutral connection with the Red wire powering the load.  Be sure this KPL is not replacing a two wire switch.  What type load?

 

The KPLs need to be cross linked.

 

Define a single ISY Scene

Add the two KPL buttons as Controllers 

[Teken]

1. What happens when you hard reset the device to a factory state? Does it still behave the same way?

2. Are you sure there aren't two neutrals from two both sides of the house in that JBOX?

3. What is the load on the two KPL's? Have you tried using standard incandescent and are the results the same? 

[pauliep]

 I honestly don't remember if one is a load and the other has a neutral.  I will have to open it up and double check.

 

The two KPL's mainly control the on/off of lights outside in the patio.  Additionally, I installed a load controller for a 220v pool pump (which should be button A), and two light switches for the pool light (button "B")  and fountain lights (button C).  So the A, B, and C buttons are all cross linked and are controllers, not responders.  

 

When I have reset them and try to delete the old scene and install a new one, I get the same button lights turns on for a few seconds and then shuts off.  Everything other than the lights on the buttons works.  The pool pump turns on, the outside lights turn on, and the fountain lights work.  I just can't figure out the rest.

[stusviews]

 I honestly don't remember if one is a load and the other has a neutral.  I will have to open it up and double check.

 

 

It doesn't matter if a KPL has a load or not, but the KPL won't function properly w/o a neutral.

[LeeG]

This is a 3 way switch configuration.  If the Red switch wire of both switches are connected to the same load it does matter.   

[pauliep]

This is, indeed, a 3 way switch configuration.  Both have a neutral attached, to the best of my recollection.  Still having the interesting problem of the lights not turning on and off appropriately within the KPL.

[LeeG]

Waiting for information on how the 2 KPL's are actually wired.  Recollection does not help.  Are both KPL's, Black to Line and White to Neutral and with one with Red wire connected to Load.

[oberkc]

Your description of the problem sounds most likely a wiring problem. Having a wire connected to the white switch wire I not necessarily the same thing as having a neutral connection. I would no rely on recollection.

 

Do you have the skills to identify a neutral beyond relying on color? White is not always neutral in standard three way wiring.

[stusviews]

In virtually all 3-way configurations, at least one white wire is not a neutral wire and at least one black wire is not a line wire. And red is not always the load.

[pauliep]

I will be pulling the switches this Saturday and checking the configuration.  I will post what I find.  I appreciate all of the help and suggestions.

[oberkc]

I will likely be helpful if your description includes:

 

- number of cables coming into each of the two boxes

- number and color of conductors in each cable

- what fixture or loads each is intended to control

[builderb]

If you don't have one, go to the hardware store and spend $10 on a voltage testing pen. This will help you tease out which is the traveler wire.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

A voltage indicator/pen is inadequate. The indicator can give a false reading. Get a voltage or multimeter. Even the least costly meter will do.

[LeeFleishman]

It's also very important to know that there are in fact TWO different kinds of 3-way wiring configurations (both are legal/code-compliant). The most common 3-way circuit utilizes TWO traveler wires between the two 3-way (SPDT) switches. One of those switches has line voltage connected to its common terminal. The other 3-way switch has the load wire (sometimes referred to as the "switchleg" wire) connected to its common terminal. The two traveler wires connect to the non-common terminals at each switch.

 

In the less common 3-way configuration (sometimes called the "Coast" or "West Coast" 3-way), there is only ONE traveler wire between the two 3-way switches, and it connects to the common terminal at EACH switch. EACH switch box also has a load wire from the light fixture AND a line voltage wire (the line voltage wire in each box is, or at least SHOULD BE, from the SAME circuit breaker). In each switch box, the line voltage wire connects to one of the switch's (non-common) terminals, and the load wire connects to that switch's other (non-common) terminal. 

 

Regardless of which configuration is present, conversion to INSTEON SWL or KPL is fairly straightforward, as long as each switch box has a real (confirmed) Neutral wire. In the case of the less common "Coast" 3-way, the load wire from the light fixture in ONE of the switch box locations is capped off and not used (as is the red wire of the INSTEON device in that switch box). It doesn't matter which INSTEON device is connected (by its Red wire) to the load wire. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Lee Fleishman

INControl Home Automation

Certified INSTEON Integrator

Thousand Oaks, CA

[larryllix]

A voltage indicator/pen is inadequate. The indicator can give a false reading. Get a voltage or multimeter. Even the least costly meter will do.

Those are not even legal for usage in my electrical utility world.

[stusviews]

There are several ways to run cables between 3-way switches, but there is only one schematic. All standard (non-HA) 3-way switches require two travelers.