mcqwerty Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 Long time forum reader Medium time ISY994 owner First time poster here. Firmware version: 4.2.18 I have 3 Broan SmartSense fans (SSQTXE080) and they come with Insteon switches that enable them to communicate with each other to extract a measured volume of air per day. I would like to pair these switches with my ISY. As far as I can tell from reading various items on the internet, these switches are the old style Insteon switches with a single LED in the center and have custom firmware specific to Broan. When I try to add any of the switches the ISY always fails reporting the "Device is not currently supported". I have tried via Link Management -> Start Linking. The first two screenshots attached to this post show what happens. I have also tried linking via Link Management -> New Insteon device and entered the address with the device type set to Auto Discover. In the Device Type drop down, there are devices that relate to what I think is an older model of Broan SmartSense fan '[05.00] SMSC80 Exhasut fan'. I tried linking by selecting this and also the similar '[05.02] SMSC100 Exhasut fan' but neither work and result in the same 'Device not currently supported' message. I did find this forum thread: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/10140-cant-add-broan-control-device/?hl=broan that looks like a similar problem but has not resolution. I have pasted my event log below: Sun 05/17/2015 20:44:51 : Start Insteon Device Linking Mode Sun 05/17/2015 20:44:51 : [LNK-BGN ] 02 64 01 00 06 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:16 : [LNK-STAT ] 02 53 M(01) gid=00 30.5B.58 050C 54 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:16 : [30.5B.58 00] Linked device type=05.0C fw=54 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:16 : [30 5B 58 0 ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:16 : [LNK-BGN ] 02 64 01 00 06 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:41 : Stop Insteon Device Linking Mode, Final processing to follow Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:41 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 30 5B 58 0F 0D 00 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:41 : [LNK-END ] 02 65 06 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:41 : [std MH ] Unexpected Ack imCmd=65 cmd1= 0x58 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:42 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 30.5B.58 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:42 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 30.5B.58 2F.B9.A3 23 0D 00 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:42 : [std-Direct Ack] 30.5B.58-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:46 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 30 5B 58 0F 0D 00 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:46 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 30.5B.58 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:47 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 30.5B.58 2F.B9.A3 2B 0D 00 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:47 : [std-Direct Ack] 30.5B.58-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:47 : [30 5B 58 0 ] Calibrating engine version Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:47 : [30 5B 58 0 ] Using Database Link Table offset 0x0FF8 (reported 0x0000) Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:48 : [30 5B 58 0 ] Failed to add device, reason 10 Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:48 : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices Sun 05/17/2015 20:45:48 : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices Also, I tried linking it to another device. I put a nearby 2477S into link mode and then pressed the link button on the Broan switch. The 2477S chirped to accept the link. The result was that they are sort of linked. If the Broan switch is on, then any change of state of the 2477S (off or on) results in the Broan switching off if it is already on. If the Broan is off, nothing happens. Below is my event log: Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:56 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 00.00.01 CB 11 01 LTONRR (01) Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:56 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:56 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:56 : [ 2C 74 C5 1] DON 1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:56 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:56 : [ 2C 74 C5 1] ST 255 Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:56 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 2] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:56 : [ 2C 74 C5 2] ST 0 Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:59 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 2F.B9.A3 43 11 01 LTONRR (01) Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:59 : [std-Cleanup ] 2C.74.C5-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 Sun 05/17/2015 20:57:59 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:00 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:00 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:00 : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:01 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 00.00.02 C7 11 02 LTONRR (02) Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:01 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->Group=2, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:01 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 2] [DON] [2] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:01 : [ 2C 74 C5 2] DON 2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:01 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 2] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:01 : [ 2C 74 C5 2] ST 255 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:01 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:01 : [ 2C 74 C5 1] ST 0 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:02 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 2F.B9.A3 42 11 02 LTONRR (02) Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:02 : [std-Cleanup ] 2C.74.C5-->ISY/PLM Group=2, Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:02 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:02 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 11.01.02 CF 06 00 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:02 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->11.01.02, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:02 : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:03 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 11.01.02 CB 06 00 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:03 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->11.01.02, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:58:03 : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 00.00.01 CB 11 01 LTONRR (01) Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [ 2C 74 C5 1] DON 1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [ 2C 74 C5 1] ST 255 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 2] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [ 2C 74 C5 2] ST 0 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 00.00.01 CF 11 01 LTONRR (01) Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:26 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:27 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 2F.B9.A3 42 11 01 LTONRR (01) Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:27 : [std-Cleanup ] 2C.74.C5-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:27 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:27 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:27 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:27 : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:28 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:28 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:28 : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 00.00.02 CB 11 02 LTONRR (02) Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->Group=2, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 2] [DON] [2] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [ 2C 74 C5 2] DON 2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 2] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [ 2C 74 C5 2] ST 255 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 74 C5 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [ 2C 74 C5 1] ST 0 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 00.00.02 CB 11 02 LTONRR (02) Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->Group=2, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:29 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:31 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 2F.B9.A3 4B 11 02 LTONRR (02) Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:31 : [std-Cleanup ] 2C.74.C5-->ISY/PLM Group=2, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:31 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:32 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.74.C5 11.01.02 CB 06 00 (00) Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:32 : [std-Group ] 2C.74.C5-->11.01.02, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 05/17/2015 20:59:32 : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Obviously I would really like to get these switches included in my network, especially since I have 3 of them. Is it possible to request that UD add support in an upcoming release? Thanks
LeeG Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 For the manual linking be sure the Broan device is On when linking with 2477S. Normal requirement for manual linking. It sounds like the Broan was Off when manually linked. Manually unlink it, then link with the Broan On. Manual linking is very poor because the ISY is not aware of the link so neither 2477S nor Broan can be managed (restored or otherwise linked) by the ISY. The Broan is device type [05.0C] which is not in the list of supported devices. UDI will have to comment on cost to support such a device. The device indicates it is an old I1 device and does not indicate link database location. Does not have the expected command responses of the current devices.
LeeG Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 Additional info: it is NOT designed to work with anything but that old device that looks like an ICON switch that has been modified to work with the Fan. Suspect even manual linking with a 2477S with the Fan On will not produce the "Master" controller function covered in the owners manual.
mcqwerty Posted May 21, 2015 Author Posted May 21, 2015 Hi LeeG, thanks for the feedback and sorry for my delayed response. The manual linking was not my goal since I do want to be able to control the Broan from the ISY, I was just trying it to see if it gave any more clues. I followed the procedure to unlink from the 2477S and the link while the Broan was on, but I still got the same behavior where a change in state of the 2477S would turn the Broan off if it was already on, but would not turn it on. I'm not worried about perusing this any further as its no use if it doesn't help troubleshoot why it cannot be linked to the ISY. If I understand your post correctly, there is no way for me to link the Broan switch to the ISY at present? I understand that it may not be worth UDI supporting old devices, but these Broan fans are brand new since they came with my new build house of only 3 months so they are the current switches provided by Broan. Also since it looks like UDI did support the previous generation of Broan SmartSense fans, (at least they appear in the drop down box in my original post) I wonder if they would be willing to support this newer generation from Broan. Is there an official channel for these requests or are UDI monitoring all the forum posts?
paulbates Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 I would start with broan themselves and see what design limitations there may be for what you are trying Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mcqwerty Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 I have not contacted Broan but I would guess they would not encourage this and certainly not support it. The Smartsense system is such that you 'teach' the master switch the size of your house and then all of the smartsense switches communicate to ensure the correct ventilation volume is achieved daily. This is done by the master switch activating itself and the other fans periodically and counting the amount of air expelled by both these automated runs and also by any manual ventilation initiated by users via the various switches. Needless to say, I want to take control of this and since the switches are Insteon was hoping to save myself $$ by re-purposing these Broan switches and not having to purchase 3 more 2477S units. Being able to control the on/off action of the switch is all I need, but if Broan have modified the switches so much with their custom firmware that this is not possible then I will just have to remove them and add them and replace them with 2477S units.
paulbates Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 I just reread Lee's note, and the unique device id is the problem. It doesn't mean it won't work, but UDI uses the device types to know what types of messages it can expect to send to, and receive from, the device. The UDI doesn't have this device type in its list. Under the hood, it may be a regular old swithclinc, I would contact UDI by submitting a ticket and supplying a link to this thread. One possibility is that they could recommend a device type in the drop down that would be an approximate fit, eg switchlinc 2xxx. If its a basic switchlinc, that would give you on and off and remote sensing of on and off, which should be what you need. Paul
Teken Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 One of the first things I would do is hard reset just one of these unit pairs to see if they simply needed a restore. If it works then win! ️ if not submit a ticket and see what happens from there. Sadly I don't believe it will be supported because I asked the same for a whole house leak sensor and was told no. Not enough demand to retask human resources etc. Another thing you could try after the hard reset is to select various devices and see if they allow linking. I did this with my leak system with varying success. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
mcqwerty Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 I have had partial success with Link Management -> New INSTEON Device. I entered the address and selected [02.0B] (2876S) Icon On/Off Switch v.00. This enables me to remotely control the switch off and on but does not provide the remote sensing of off and on. I also tried [02.16] (2876SB) Icon Relay Switch and got the exact same result. I did try resetting one of the switches first before I performed the above but it didn't make any difference since I got the same result with the switch I reset as with another switch I did not reset. I'm pretty sure this is an ICON device since it physically resembles the old ICON switches hence why I focused on these device types. I'm guessing my best way forward is to submit a ticket with UDI as suggested to try to get full support added which I will do, but if this new info gives anyone some more ideas of what to try then I will be happy to give it a go.
paulbates Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 It might be helpful to see the link tables in the PLM and the Switch. Can you: Right click on the ICON switch you added the broan under, and one at a time pick diagnotics, then show device links..screen shotthe resutls pick diagnostics, then show ISY link .... screen shot the results Post both back here. Paul
LeeG Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 30.56.CB is not responding to any command. The data displayed is an echo of the link record address being accessed.
mcqwerty Posted May 23, 2015 Author Posted May 23, 2015 Hi LeeG, I think I understand what you are saying but I don't understand what this means. 30.56.CB is the Broan ICON switch, and it does physically respond to on/off commands sent from the ISY console it just doesn't report remote status to the ISY when turned on/off locally. What am I missing here?
G W Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 Hi LeeG, I think I understand what you are saying but I don't understand what this means. 30.56.CB is the Broan ICON switch, and it does physically respond to on/off commands sent from the ISY console it just doesn't report remote status to the ISY when turned on/off locally. What am I missing here? That's what he is saying. The switch is not responding.
mcqwerty Posted May 23, 2015 Author Posted May 23, 2015 I'm sorry, I don't understand. I can see and hear the fan turn on or off when I trigger it via the ISY console, so it is responding to commands sent from the ISY, but when I press the physical paddle of the wall switch on or off the status does not update in the ISY.
G W Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 I'm sorry, I don't understand. I can see and hear the fan turn on or off when I trigger it via the ISY console, so it is responding to commands sent from the ISY, but when I press the physical paddle of the wall switch on or off the status does not update in the ISY. But it's not sending back the data that it turned the fan on.
mcqwerty Posted May 23, 2015 Author Posted May 23, 2015 Right. So the switch receives the command to turn on/off, responds by turning the relay on/off but does not respond to the ISY to confirm? Since the ISY initiated the status change, the status in the ISY is correct if the status change is initiated via the ISY but if the status change is initiated on the physical switch, it is not reported to the ISY. I think we are on the same page, but can anything be done to fix the issue of the switch not sending status updates to the ISY when the local status changes?
LeeG Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 mcqwerty The Broan requires functional link records for it to send local state changes to ISY. Link records are not used when the ISY sends On/Off commands to the Broan. Would need to see Event Trace at LEVEL 3 of Show Devices Links Table to expand on what is happening. Since the ISY has been told the Broan is some other variant than what it actually is the Show is likely not issuing the appropriate commands.
Teken Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 Here is a novel idea if you have a spare switch not related to this broan device. Wire it up and see if you can control it via the paddle and see if the ISY see's it via the console.
mcqwerty Posted May 23, 2015 Author Posted May 23, 2015 Teken: Do you mean remove the Broan switch and wire up a 2477S in its place and see if that functions as expected, (i.e. controlling the fan and linking to the ISY)? LeeG: I think I have done what you asked correctly, event log at level 3 taken while the ISY was building the device links table for the Broan switch is attached (it is very long!) eventlog.txt
LeeG Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 The posted image is of the Show display. Need to run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Then do Show Device Links Table and post the event viewer output to show the commands issued and command result. I do not think there is way to get the operation you need without UDI adding support specific to the Broan. You correctly understand what Taken is suggesting. The Fan will likely run and the link records will work but you lose all the function Broan provided that resides in the modified ICON switch. If that is all you want better to return the Broan equipment and pick up an inexpensive Fan that can be driven On/Off with the 2477S Relay.
Teken Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 Teken: Do you mean remove the Broan switch and wire up a 2477S in its place and see if that functions as expected, (i.e. controlling the fan and linking to the ISY)? [\quote] Exactly, if it works win! If not at least you tried and that is one option explored. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
mcqwerty Posted May 23, 2015 Author Posted May 23, 2015 LeeG: There are two attachments, one is a text file that I think is what you are asking for. There were a lot of entries so I didn't want to flood the thread. Please let me know if I have misunderstood. Regarding replacing the Broan switch with a 2477S - This is my fallback plan since remote switching and sensing of the fan operation is all I need. I can't return the fans as they were part of my new build house. I was just trying to save money by re-purposing the existing Broan ICON switches as standard Insteon on/off switches rather than purchasing 3 2477S units since I don't need the Broan controlled extra functionality.
LeeG Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 Sorry my mistake.The trace shows that level of ICON switch does not support the commands the ISY is using. The Peek (read) command is returning the address rather than the actual dataSat 05/23/2015 12:35:33 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 30 56 CB 0F 28 0FSat 05/23/2015 12:35:33 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 30.56.CB 0F 28 0F 06 SET-MSB(0F)Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 30.56.CB 2F.B9.A3 2B 28 0F SET-MSB(0F)Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [std-Direct Ack] 30.56.CB-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 30 56 CB 0F 2B F8 - this command reading 0xF8Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 30.56.CB 0F 2B F8 06 PEEK (F8)Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 30.56.CB 2F.B9.A3 2B 2B F8 PEEK (F8) - device returns address rather than dataSat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [std-Direct Ack] 30.56.CB-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 30 56 CB 0F 28 0FSat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 30.56.CB 0F 28 0F 06 SET-MSB(0F)Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 30.56.CB 2F.B9.A3 2B 28 0F SET-MSB(0F)Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [std-Direct Ack] 30.56.CB-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:34 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 30 56 CB 0F 2B F9Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:35 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 30.56.CB 0F 2B F9 06 PEEK (F9)Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:35 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 30.56.CB 2F.B9.A3 2B 2B F9 PEEK (F9)Sat 05/23/2015 12:35:35 : [std-Direct Ack] 30.56.CB-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 The ISY cannot build or read the required link records with the commands it is using.
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