UPS and zwave

[Guitartexan]

Hello all.

 

Question: I purchased an APS 750 va UPS to back up my computer gear and HA equipment. I know you don't want insteon on surge or UPS but what about the isy or the isy being in proximity to this UPS or even being on the same phase? I have a "whole house" tvss installed at the MDP and a phase coupler installed in the interior panel. Will any of this affect my isy or zwave? No insteon installed yet.

 

Thanks for any information.

 

GT

 

 

Shut up bunghole

-Butthead

[xKing]

I have 3 APC UPSes in the home (1 Smart and 2 Back), whole house surge (Eaton) and no insteon or z wave issues at all. UPSes are not on FilterLincs. PLM is connected straight to the outlet (not via the UPS) of course.

[Teken]

Hello all.

 

Question: I purchased an APS 750 va UPS to back up my computer gear and HA equipment. I know you don't want insteon on surge or UPS but what about the isy or the isy being in proximity to this UPS or even being on the same phase? I have a "whole house" tvss installed at the MDP and a phase coupler installed in the interior panel. Will any of this affect my isy or zwave? No insteon installed yet.

 

Thanks for any information.

 

GT

 

 

Shut up bunghole

-Butthead

 

I have the ISY on a point of use UPS system more as a method to extend the life of the product against surge / sags in the electrical line. All of the UPS are behind a filter to ensure no absorption of the Insteon power line signal. It should be noted a few people have actually placed their PLM on a UPS while filtering the power line.

 

This forces the signal to transmit via RF only.

 

It seems to work for some given a very specific circumstance / need. But, in my mind its circumventing the whole point of the dual band technology that is present. It's also a band aid for a much larger problem in their homes whether that be physical restrictions in their site or the unwillingness to determine root cause of the COM issues.

 

I've found that cheaper Z-Wave products require a massive amount of repeaters even in a small home. The newer Gen5 Z-Wave Plus units appear to operate and transmit much better than previous generation units. Since Z-Wave is RF based most systems should not be impacted by power line noise etc.

 

The reality is Z-Wave is impacted by the same noise makers / signal suckers to a lesser degree when compared to Insteon. At the end of the day it really comes down to trial and error at the site to validate if something will operate. Perfect example is using LED bulbs for Insteon control in the home.

 

A client engaged me to help trouble shoot his install because it was erratic and reliability was poor. After about five minutes of poking around it was obvious the LED bulbs he purchased based on the Interwebs suggestions had changed. Simply removing the LED bulbs restored COM's and the Insteon reliability I have come to expect and see.

 

Another key aspect was the clients resistance in using filter lincs.

 

His mind set was that he would always know to unplug something or would follow up with his family before plugging in something into the power line.

 

Wrong . . .

 

Humans by their vary nature are lazy.

 

After another 30 minutes it was found this client had no freaking clue how many noise makers / signal suckers were being plugged into the line or how they (added) slowly to breaking point of signal degradation.

 

Every install I do we do a complete inventory of the electrical components in the home and test to see if they are a issues. Using scene tests, Level 3 error logs, and a stop watch. With the newer Insteon firmware some of the gear can be programmed to Ack upon error and this works great at the local site.

 

Sometimes I pull out HL2 or the diagnostic keypad and perform the same tests.

 

As has been stated many times there are four basics that need to be followed and done. Doing so will provide the customer a fighting chance in having a reliable Insteon network.

 

1. Hard reset all Insteon devices to a factory state before adding them to the network.

2. Confirm proper coupling / bridging for the PLM and the most distant dual band devices.

3. Identify as many noise makers / signal suckers and filter, remove, replace.

4. Terminate all wires with linesmen pliers and not simply with the Marrette / wire nut.

 

- It goes with out saying you should only add, change, and link your devices using the ISY Series Controller. Ensure you're using the latest firmware for the controller as it normally resolves existing bugs and provides new features.

[Guitartexan]

Thank you for your input gentlemen.

So my next question then is related to the pervious: what would make my garage tilt sensor suddenly be the only thing not communicating? I can bring it near isy and remove then add it into the network, but when it tries to complete the add, the screen says something akin to "unable to communicate with device". Also there is a very rapidly changing string of small script that reads "asleep wake up" or something to that effect on this device only. I've not seen that before. It flashes so fast that you cannot read the entire line of text. Does this have anything to do with my new UPS? Can you not plug isy into UPS? No Insteon yet in this install.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

GT

 

 

Shut up bunghole

-Butthead

[Teken]

Thank you for your input gentlemen.

So my next question then is related to the pervious: what would make my garage tilt sensor suddenly be the only thing not communicating? I can bring it near isy and remove then add it into the network, but when it tries to complete the add, the screen says something akin to "unable to communicate with device". Also there is a very rapidly changing string of small script that reads "asleep wake up" or something to that effect on this device only. I've not seen that before. It flashes so fast that you cannot read the entire line of text. Does this have anything to do with my new UPS? Can you not plug isy into UPS? No Insteon yet in this install.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

GT

 

 

Shut up bunghole

-Butthead

 

It could be you have several things at play here so I will try to list them in no specific order.

 

- Despite popular belief Z-Wave requires lots of repeaters so if you don't have many devices in your network it might be time to add a few.

 

- It has been identified a few devices went to sleep too fast or the ISY was programmed to allow a device to go back to sleep before adding, updating etc. This issue has been reported and by memory is being worked on now. So this device could be one of those items that need to be reviewed and worked on.

 

- Orientation of the ISY sometimes helps with poor COM's. Keep in mind this points to a lack of repeaters from the controller to the end device.

 

- It appears sometimes the routing and network heal is required (multiple times) to force the system to make note of the fastest / shortest route to a end device. You may simply need to do a few network heals and things might get better.  

[Guitartexan]

Thanks for the speedy reply Teken!

I have installed 12 devices throughout the first floor and had had good com to the tilt sensor before I installed the UPS, so that's what made me question it. I've done two heals trying to get the tilt sensor to complete the add but the heals seem like they take an overly long time now-15+ minutes the last time. How long should a heal take?

 

 

Shut up bunghole

-Butthead

[Teken]

Thanks for the speedy reply Teken!

I have installed 12 devices throughout the first floor and had had good com to the tilt sensor before I installed the UPS, so that's what made me question it. I've done two heals trying to get the tilt sensor to complete the add but the heals seem like they take an overly long time now-15+ minutes the last time. How long should a heal take?

 

 

Shut up bunghole

-Butthead

 

I honestly can't say since I don't own any Z-Wave products. If you suspect the UPS as being the culprit simply unplug it and see if there is a difference in COM's. 

 

Just for reference sake are you on the latest 4.3.3 release? If not I would humbly suggest you upgrade and read the release notes as there were a few bugs resolved and features added etc. I would also ask you to go to the 4.3.3 forum thread and ask if the tilt sensor is one of the devices being investigated for going to sleep too fast.

 

This will at least put it on the radar for UDI in case they are not aware etc. Please also do a Level 3 error log and submit it to UDI for review and reference this and the other thread in your contact via support.

 

This will help them fully understand the issue etc.

[Teken]

These are the steps to perform prior to sending out the logs to UDI.

 

1. Exclude this device from your ISY

2. Turn on the Event Viewer and change the Level to 3

3. Include the devices

4. Save the contents of the Event Viewer in a file and attach to an email to support@universal-devices.com. Please copy and paste the link to this post in the Subject of your email.

[Brian H]

An UPS's AC power line input filter. Can absorb Insteon power line signals.

For us early adopters with the old I1 power line only Insteon modules it can make a difference. I have my PLM on the feed through outlet on the front of a FilterLinc and the UPS on the filtered outlet. Power line only devices like the IOLinc may also be effected. If you have one.

 

The later Dual Band Insteon devices can also use an RF signal and power line signal issues are not as touchy..

[Guitartexan]

Thanks so much for the good information. I have used the suggestions offered here and submitted a service request. I will let you all know what we find.

 

GT