brianp6621 Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 While messing around with my KPLs today I mistakenly adjusted the backlight of the buttons. Now I set them back to 0(off)/15(on) and I don't know if it is my imagination or not, but 0 (which is not actually off and provides some glow, which is what I want) seems MUCH dimmer than it was before. I can tell it is illuminated but not enough to be of any real use other than finding the switch. However the 1 setting is far too bright and seems like the switch is activated. Has anyone else experience that the normal off backlight on an as shipped KPL is different than any value you can set from the ISY?
Teken Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) Yes, the only method that I know of is either to play with all combinations or reset the switch. This problem has existed for years. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Edited July 19, 2015 by Teken
brianp6621 Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 Yes, the only method that I know of is either to play with all combinations or reset the switch. This problem has existed for years. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent So is there a way to "play with the combinations" that will somehow bring back the really dim setting? If what form of reset do I do on the switch to get the original default back and then do I have to reprogram everything from scratch?
LeeG Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 The Off/On LED brightness numbers can be set to values the device cannot process. The Off/On levels will be 8 increments apart, Off=7 On=15 for example. Setting Off=1 On=15 does not result in 14 increments difference between Off and On. One number or the other is always the controlling factor with what amounts to an 8 increment difference. It has been years since I played with these numbers. HouseLinc started using a single percent number (20% for example) to avoid the issue. Since HL is no longer supported it is no longer possible to draw a comparison anymore. You can Delete the KPL and do a Factory Reset before adding it back but you lose all the unique configuration. Can also play with the numbers until you get what you want, with the understanding that 8 is the magic number for separation.
brianp6621 Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) The Off/On LED brightness numbers can be set to values the device cannot process. The Off/On levels will be 8 increments apart, Off=7 On=15 for example. Setting Off=1 On=15 does not result in 14 increments difference between Off and On. One number or the other is always the controlling factor with what amounts to an 8 increment difference. It has been years since I played with these numbers. HouseLinc started using a single percent number (20% for example) to avoid the issue. Since HL is no longer supported it is no longer possible to draw a comparison anymore. You can Delete the KPL and do a Factory Reset before adding it back but you lose all the unique configuration. Can also play with the numbers until you get what you want, with the understanding that 8 is the magic number for separation. I'll keep playing but so far I have not found any combination that seems like it was the default. Unfortunately I modified both of my KPLs so I have no baseline to compare back to. Edit. My results are much different than you previous results. Basically 0/X means the buttons are effectively off (very very slight amount of light) and the light gets incrementally brighter as I go from x=0 to x=15. There doesn't seem to be a max 8 unit difference anymore, at least not when the backlight/off is off. I think the same holds true when you go to 1/X, I still see movement all the way up to 15. For me the real problem is the intensity jump from 0/x to 1/x is far too much. With the Off at 1, the buttons can actually be misinterpreted as on in daylight, while actually off. I may have to factory reset tomorrow. Edited July 19, 2015 by brianp6621
LeeG Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 You are using the Off button level of 0 (effectively LED not powered in Off state) as a general statement of On/Off level relationship. Unfortunately that does not track if you walk the values up starting with Off=1 On=0, 1/1, 1/2, 1/3. Here the LED is powered in both Off and On state and the difference in brightness does apply. It is also useful to remove one of the button caps so the actual LED can be viewed as the numbers are walked up one at a time, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/7, ....., 1/15, 2/0, 2/1, 2/2, etc. I found it helpful to do the testing in a darkened room as it can be difficult to see if any change actually occurs as the numbers are walked up in 1 increments. The KPL can be Factory Reset without Deleting from the ISY. That will bring the LEDs to factory reset level for a reference point but a Restore Device can be done to restore the KPL after the LED numbers are set as desired.
Teken Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 I'll keep playing but so far I have not found any combination that seems like it was the default. Unfortunately I modified both of my KPLs so I have no baseline to compare back to. Edit. My results are much different than you previous results. Basically 0/X means the buttons are effectively off (very very slight amount of light) and the light gets incrementally brighter as I go from x=0 to x=15. There doesn't seem to be a max 8 unit difference anymore, at least not when the backlight/off is off. I think the same holds true when you go to 1/X, I still see movement all the way up to 15. For me the real problem is the intensity jump from 0/x to 1/x is far too much. With the Off at 1, the buttons can actually be misinterpreted as on in daylight, while actually off. I may have to factory reset tomorrow. Yes, you will find various iterations of (years) the KPL hardware / firmware had changed and some of these minute changes were done and undocumented. Keep us all in the loop as to how you get on and what the final results are. For the benefit of others please state the hardware Revision, production date which is stated on the face of the product and the ISY firmware level. I am sure this information will prove helpful to someone else down the line. As an aside many folks have purchased a (used) House Linc (HL2) kit and used it to perform similar changes outlined by LeeG. You also have the benefits of making other global changes sometimes not offered by the ISY Series Controller.
brianp6621 Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 You are using the Off button level of 0 (effectively LED not powered in Off state) as a general statement of On/Off level relationship. Unfortunately that does not track if you walk the values up starting with Off=1 On=0, 1/1, 1/2, 1/3. Here the LED is powered in both Off and On state and the difference in brightness does apply. It is also useful to remove one of the button caps so the actual LED can be viewed as the numbers are walked up one at a time, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/7, ....., 1/15, 2/0, 2/1, 2/2, etc. I found it helpful to do the testing in a darkened room as it can be difficult to see if any change actually occurs as the numbers are walked up in 1 increments. The KPL can be Factory Reset without Deleting from the ISY. That will bring the LEDs to factory reset level for a reference point but a Restore Device can be done to restore the KPL after the LED numbers are set as desired. I didn't do extremely exhaustive testing last night, all I did was confirm that from 0/0 to 0/15 I did see a continual increase in brightness of the on buttons. Also I confirmed that no matter what I did, I couldn't get the default brightness back. Can you give me the step by step for resetting the KPL without losing all my custom configuration and having to re-add to the ISY? I am not looking forward to that.
LeeG Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) Factory Reset of KPL ... pull Set button to remove power for 30 seconds push Set button all the way in below frame level, it will beep in a few seconds where Set button is released. This will reset KPL configuration but since the KPL has not been Deleted from the ISY a Restore Device will restore configuration. Before doing the Restore Device set the LED Off/On level to match whatever level you want. Then do Restore Device. Edited July 19, 2015 by LeeG
LeeG Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 If not discovered yet, try Off=3/On=15 for factory reset values. A Query of the KPL, the 2E Extended response, Data 9 field has the Off/On LED value if the KPL is still set to factory reset. Sun 07/19/2015 03:59:05 PM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 15 9A F9 22 80 0B 11 2E 00 01 01 00 00 20 20 1C FE 3F 00 C0 00 00 00
brianp6621 Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 Nope, 3/15 is even brighter than the unacceptable 1/15 in the off state.
brianp6621 Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 For reference my switch is a Rev 7.4 I did a factory reset and a query doesn't show the INST-ERX line. However after restoring, and not changing the LED brightness before/after restore, I get Sun 07/19/2015 03:10:49 PM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 33 CF 55 39 01 9C 15 2E 00 01 01 00 00 20 20 1C FF 0F 80 00 00 00 00 Honestly during the daytime I can't tell if the off backlighting is different than it was when I set it to 0/15. I'll check tonight.
LeeG Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 My newest KPL is hardware v7.3. Setting it to Off=0/On=15 (as yours is) has the buttons which are Off basically dark. Removing a button cap shows one of the Off button LEDs as so dark as to be not illuminated. Yours .... Sun 07/19/2015 03:10:49 PM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 33 CF 55 39 01 9C 15 2E 00 01 01 00 00 20 20 1C FF 0F 80 00 00 00 00 My v.7.3 Sun 07/19/2015 07:29:38 PM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 33 14 23 22 80 0B 11 2E 00 01 01 00 00 20 20 1C FE 0F 02 00 00 C2 00 I don't see how a button that is Off can get any darker than not illuminated.
brianp6621 Posted July 20, 2015 Author Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) My newest KPL is hardware v7.3. Setting it to Off=0/On=15 (as yours is) has the buttons which are Off basically dark. Removing a button cap shows one of the Off button LEDs as so dark as to be not illuminated. Yours .... Sun 07/19/2015 03:10:49 PM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 33 CF 55 39 01 9C 15 2E 00 01 01 00 00 20 20 1C FF 0F 80 00 00 00 00 My v.7.3 Sun 07/19/2015 07:29:38 PM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 33 14 23 22 80 0B 11 2E 00 01 01 00 00 20 20 1C FE 0F 02 00 00 C2 00 I don't see how a button that is Off can get any darker than not illuminated. i don't want it to be off. I want an off button to be slightly illuminated so they can be found in the dark. Unfortunately a setting of 1 is already too bright. Edited July 20, 2015 by brianp6621
stusviews Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 The Off and On illumination levels are not independent. Nor do they have a linear relationship. Try this: Set both Off and On levels to 0 (zero). Set the Off level to 1. Is that OK? If so, start to increase the On level incrementally as desired. If Off is too dim, increase the Off level by one increment until you reach the level you want. Only then, adjust the On level. Decreasing any level can require that you start over. Caveat: Your revision may behave differently.
brianp6621 Posted July 20, 2015 Author Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) The Off and On illumination levels are not independent. Nor do they have a linear relationship. Try this: Set both Off and On levels to 0 (zero). Set the Off level to 1. Is that OK? If so, start to increase the On level incrementally as desired. If Off is too dim, increase the Off level by one increment until you reach the level you want. Only then, adjust the On level. Decreasing any level can require that you start over. Caveat: Your revision may behave differently. I started at 0/0. 1/0 is already too bright and different from the default behavior. Nothing makes the off state dimmer than 1/0 but not fully off. Like I said in the open, it is as if the state from the factory can not be reprogrammed once the settings have been modified. Of course maybe I'm imagining things and the off state of 0 is the same as default. I don't have an unmodified KPL to check now. Edited July 20, 2015 by brianp6621
Teken Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 Of course maybe I'm imagining things and the off state of 0 is the same as default. I don't have an unmodified KPL to check now. You're not imagining anything what you have stated is correct. To be clear what you're seeing happens to newer devices that are hard reset. The older hardware / firmware KPL's always came back to the OEM *default* lit value so I had a reference. Doing the same thing in various iterations of KPL hardware / firmware never came back to the OEM state. I am unsure how that can be but it appears to me once the table has been written to the increments must be modified with something like HL2 software. This is what I did to hardware that would not reset after a hard restore of the KPL.
brianp6621 Posted July 20, 2015 Author Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) You're not imagining anything what you have stated is correct. To be clear what you're seeing happens to newer devices that are hard reset. The older hardware / firmware KPL's always came back to the OEM *default* lit value so I had a reference. Doing the same thing in various iterations of KPL hardware / firmware never came back to the OEM state. I am unsure how that can be but it appears to me once the table has been written to the increments must be modified with something like HL2 software. This is what I did to hardware that would not reset after a hard restore of the KPL. so you're saying a houselinc kit can modify the back lighting in ways the ISY/factory reset can't? What would I need for that just the software but then hook my PLM up to my computer? While adjusting the settings? Can I do that with my KPLs still linked to the ISY? What exactly would the steps be? So irritated that I didn't even mean to mess with the KPL brightness (I didn't realize what I was doing or the consequences ) and now I'm stuck. Edited July 20, 2015 by brianp6621
Teken Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 so you're saying a houselinc kit can modify the back lighting in ways the ISY/factory reset can't? Yes, that was my personal experiences on getting newer style KPL's to respect the OEM LED levels. It should be noted HL2 is EOL so I unsure if current hardware is supported as I have nothing to compare to. I normally use it strictly for testing, trouble shooting, and diagnostics. In this case I used it to reset the LED levels to a my liking. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
brianp6621 Posted July 20, 2015 Author Posted July 20, 2015 Yes, that was my personal experiences on getting newer style KPL's to respect the OEM LED levels. It should be noted HL2 is EOL so I unsure if current hardware is supported as I have nothing to compare to. I normally use it strictly for testing, trouble shooting, and diagnostics. In this case I used it to reset the LED levels to a my liking. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent check my edit above. Just curious exactly what steps I would take after dling the software.
Teken Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 I've never used HL2 software with a 2413S PLM linked to an existing ISY controller so can't comment on that part I use the HL2 supplied USB PLM and hard reset the device than simply added it to HL2. Than set the LED level to what ever appeared to be correct when compared to a unit not messed up. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
brianp6621 Posted July 20, 2015 Author Posted July 20, 2015 I've never used HL2 software with a 2413S PLM linked to an existing ISY controller so can't comment on that part I use the HL2 supplied USB PLM and hard reset the device than simply added it to HL2. Than set the LED level to what ever appeared to be correct when compared to a unit not messed up. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent OK so essentially starting from scratch on that KPL. Is there then a way to easily "restore" it on my ISY/configuration or do I have to set it all back up from scratch?
Teken Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 OK so essentially starting from scratch on that KPL. Is there then a way to easily "restore" it on my ISY/configuration or do I have to set it all back up from scratch? I believe the method LeeG indicated would mimic the same thing. I am however hesitant in believing this method would provide a true default state. Because if you select restore device it's going to take what ever settings are in the system. One would assume the changed dim levels would come back exactly as you have now. Give it a try and report back at least you can say if it worked and this will save you time reprogramming from scratch. If it doesn't work and you feel you can't live with the current dim levels hard reset the KPL and see if it's the same as before but use HL2 and see if it works. This assumes your KPL is listed in the very old data base. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
Techman Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) If the keypad button leds are too bright at the lowest setting you might want to try replacing the clear plastic lens behind the button with a yellow or blue lens take a look at this link http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2401l-led-color-change-kit-for-keypadlinc-4-color.html Edited July 20, 2015 by Techman
brianp6621 Posted July 20, 2015 Author Posted July 20, 2015 If the keypad button leds are too bright at the lowest setting you might want to try replacing the clear plastic lens behind the button with a yellow or blue lens take a look at this link http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2401l-led-color-change-kit-for-keypadlinc-4-color.html Already have some of those but that defeats the purpose (for me) of using the colors to indicate different lights.
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