stusviews Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 (edited) The first connection of the 14/2 to the 14/3 is right past the wall in the junction box of light #4. Does that mean that ceiling box 4 has a 3-wire cable going to a switch box (is it switch box 1?) and a 2-wire cable going to ceiling box 3? Did you use a meter at ceiling box 4 to verify 110/120VAC between the line and neutral and between the line and ground with absolutely no other wires connected to the black and white wires from the "panel." Not even the wires from the 3-wire cable (with the unused red wire)? Until the source (line and neutral) is positively identified, any wiring suggestion is speculative.The diagram shows many possibilities. Also, label each switch box, 1 and 2 or A and B or any other specific identifier. As it is, each switch has an identical label. Edited August 5, 2015 by stusviews
Spta97 Posted August 5, 2015 Author Posted August 5, 2015 Does that mean that ceiling box 4 has a 3-wire cable going to a switch box (is it switch box 1?) and a 2-wire cable going to ceiling box 3? Did you use a meter at ceiling box 4 to verify 110/120VAC between the line and neutral and between the line and ground with absolutely no other wires connected to the black and white wires from the "panel." Not even the wires from the 3-wire cable (with the unused red wire)? Until the source (line and neutral) is positively identified, any wiring suggestion is speculative.The diagram shows many possibilities. Also, label each switch box, 1 and 2 or A and B or any other specific identifier. As it is, each switch has an identical label. Actually, I beleive the three wire in question starts at the florecent light - I will update tomight. When it reaches light 4 it is just to house the connections. The red wire is capped. The 14/2 wire at light 4 comes from light 3 and is connected to the wires of that light. It is not connected to any of the wires from the 14/3. The switch at the top is #1 and the switch at the bottom is #2. 2 controls the load. I will take everything apart this weekend and verify voltage as requested. I am curious though, what do you think the cause of the flicker could be? It would be helpful to know the end game when doing testing.
stusviews Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 I am curious though, what do you think the cause of the flicker could be? It would be helpful to know the end game when doing testing. Until all the wires are correctly identified. any suggestion is speculative. There's not much sense in giving you half a dozen possible causes when only one or none of the guesses is correct. The end game is to get everything wired correctly and only then to find a cause ─ if the flickering continues.
Spta97 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) I've finally got some time to mess with it today so I will post results. I did find something strange though. In the wires for the top switch box that "go on to power a light and outlet in other rooms". One of those rooms is a bathroom light. On that light I have 14/2 cable coming in and it measures 120 volts across the white and black. There is another 14/3 wire that goes to a switch and when I use the hot wire from the 14/2 to either the white or the black of the 14/3 I'm getting 86 volts. On the lighted tester it doesn't light up but read voltage on the multimeter. Edited August 9, 2015 by Spta97
Spta97 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Posted August 9, 2015 I measured the voltage at all the wires and everything seems right, sans the 14/2 wire that feeds the lights in the bathroom (and other outlet) from switch 1. As mentioned, that cable is connected to the power at switchbox 1 (top) and goes to feed the outlet in the living room and downstairs bathroom (burried behind sheetrock so I don't know the route). When I test the power wire at the bathroom light with the neutral in the same cable it reads 120v. However, when I test the power wire and the neutral from the outlet that controls that light I get ~80 volts. Not sure why?
Spta97 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) More info. I rewired and removed the outlet and bathroom light that were fed off of this circut. Performance was the same. I then removed the switch at the top of the stairs and had just the bottom switch wired. Same. I swapped the switch to rule out a faulty switch and it didn't help. The flickering can be replicated by turning on another insteon switch in a different part of the basement which is on a different circuit. If I dim the lights in question then turn on the other basement light it will cause these lights to go to full power and then dim back. I'm tempted to put halogen lights in to see if the behavior changes. Any thoughts are appreciated. Edited August 9, 2015 by Spta97
stusviews Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Try one halogen (or incandescent) bulb along with the other three being LEDs. Did that help?
Spta97 Posted August 10, 2015 Author Posted August 10, 2015 Try one halogen (or incandescent) bulb along with the other three being LEDs. Did that help? I will try when I get home. I would be interested to see if that works as the wattage is 19 less than the bedroom with similar lights (4 vs 6).
Spta97 Posted August 11, 2015 Author Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) Well I put in a 50 watt halogen and that seems to have solved the issue. The (now single switch) responded smoothly to dimming and was unaffected by turning on the other basement insteon switch (no more flickering or ramping up to high then back to dim). I took out the halogen just to eliminate a bad LED light and it was back to flickering when using other insteon. Same when I put the LED back in. The total wattage is 38 watts with the LEDs. Is this below some insteon threshold? My old x10 switch worked fine on half the wattage. Are there other options rather than keeping in a halogen (too much heat and wattage) as these lights will stay on often? In a worst case scenario I could install another LED light but the 4 in the room makes it like the sun. 5 and I would have to put on sunglasses. Lol. Edit - I will put everything back together (switches, other feeds connected, etc) and run the test again when I get time. Edited August 11, 2015 by Spta97
MWareman Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) 38W seems enough for loads connected to a switch with a neutral. I have many LEDs at 7w working without issue. I may have missed it - but are your switches three wire (with neutral) or two wire (without neutral)? Edited August 11, 2015 by MWareman
Spta97 Posted August 11, 2015 Author Posted August 11, 2015 38W seems enough for loads connected to a switch with a neutral. I have many LEDs at 7w working without issue. I may have missed it - but are your switches three wire (with neutral) or two wire (without neutral)? Everything has a neutral. Before it lacked a ground but I ran new wires. I have a somewhat older panel (13 years) and the ground and neutral buss bars are connected. The electrician who installed it mixed up the ground and neutrals on each of the buss bars. I have since split them as best I can but it probably doesn't make a difference since they are connected in the panel.
Techman Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Well I put in a 50 watt halogen and that seems to have solved the issue. The (now single switch) responded smoothly to dimming and was unaffected by turning on the other basement insteon switch (no more flickering or ramping up to high then back to dim). I took out the halogen just to eliminate a bad LED light and it was back to flickering when using other insteon. Same when I put the LED back in. The total wattage is 38 watts with the LEDs. Is this below some insteon threshold? My old x10 switch worked fine on half the wattage. Are there other options rather than keeping in a halogen (too much heat and wattage) as these lights will stay on often? In a worst case scenario I could install another LED light but the 4 in the room makes it like the sun. 5 and I would have to put on sunglasses. Lol. Edit - I will put everything back together (switches, other feeds connected, etc) and run the test again when I get time. Whose LED bulbs are you using?
Spta97 Posted August 11, 2015 Author Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) Whose LED bulbs are you using?Im using Sylvainia LEDs with the trim ring built in. Not sure if this is the exact model but very similar: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00B8O23Q6/ref=dp_ob_neva_mobile The housings are Halo I just checked the box. They are 9 watts not 9.5 according to the box. Edited August 11, 2015 by Spta97
stusviews Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Everything has a neutral. Before it lacked a ground but I ran new wires. I have a somewhat older panel (13 years) and the ground and neutral buss bars are connected. The electrician who installed it mixed up the ground and neutrals on each of the buss bars. I have since split them as best I can but it probably doesn't make a difference since they are connected in the panel. It's been more that half a century since ground wires were required. I'm not sure what you mean by, "mixed up the ground and neutrals on each of the buss bars." There should be only one buss bar. There's also a concern about "it lacked a ground." What lacked a ground? Do you have metal boxes?
Techman Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Im using Sylvainia LEDs with the trim ring built in. Not sure if this is the exact model but very similar: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00B8O23Q6/ref=dp_ob_neva_mobile The housings are Halo I just checked the box. They are 9 watts not 9.5 according to the box. I don't have first hand experience with these bulbs but when I took a look at the specs it didn't mention that they were dimmable. The 2477D is a dimmer so there may be a compatibility issue between the bulb and the switch. If that's the case you may want to try a 2477S.
stusviews Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 The cans linked to are dimmable, but the OP indicated, "Not sure if this is the exact model but very similar." Similar, in this case, is meaningless. One digit/letter difference could mean an entirely different product.
Spta97 Posted August 11, 2015 Author Posted August 11, 2015 My house was built in 1956. It had metal boxes (and still does in some places) but somewhere along the line before I bought it several were replaced and the ground strap broken. Not to derail the discussion - this circuit is now properly grounded. I will check the specs for these light and switch and the lights and switch of the same brands in my bedroom that work fine.
Spta97 Posted August 18, 2015 Author Posted August 18, 2015 It seems the problem was related to the LEDs. I swapped out the originals: http://www.lowes.com/pd_64978-3-73193_0__?productId=50226149 And tried Cree. They worked (no flicker) but had a buzzing sound. I then tried Utilitech: http://www.lowes.com/pd_599033-59179-DLS02-04A27D1E-WH-F2___?productId=50213667&pl=1&Ntt=4%26%2334%3B++recessed+led+trim+utilitech No buzzing no flicker. I use the 5/6" version of these for my kitchen and have been happy. I got the sylvania for my bedroom because the Utilitech kept on falling out of the cans. The halo cans in the basement seem to hold them like a pitbull but they flickered. I've had them installed since Friday and they have worked well other than the occasional response to an switch that isn't on the same circuit (when dimmed, they some times turn off but only a few times so far). I did call smarthome and they were less than helpful. Claiming how these dimmers are the latest technology to which I questioned why they aren't made to work with LEDs which is also a current technology. Anyway, thanks for the help. Next time I'll try bulbs before rewiring
Brian H Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Every LED manufacture uses their own designed driver circuits. It would be impossible for every dimmer to work with every brand and model LED bulb. That is why many dimmer manufacturers have a list of known to work with LED bulbs. I have not seen one lately from Smarthome/Smartlabs. Also LED bulb manufacturers have lists of known dimmer models that work with their bulbs. Edited August 18, 2015 by Brian H
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