ryanmead83 Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 I probably have the term backwards but I bought the Garage IOLinc over a year ago but really never used it mainly because the issue is when the door is closed, the system shows it as "On", so makes it a pain when putting it in scenes. I vaguely remember someone telling me I can change the sensor but I never did as I figured it would be expensive. Now that I've installed my alarm I know more about normally open, normally closed etc. Might have the terms reversed but sounds like mine is normally open since to me it should say ON when the door is open. If I want to swap it, does that mean I can just buy the same type of $5 2 wire sensor I'd be using for my alarm, the magnetic contact type one? Or do I have to change wiring on the IOLinc as well? Or do I even need another sensor? Would something like this work? https://www.aartech.ca/product/00/AMS-37/Amseco-Industrial-Surface-Contact-2-Inch-Gap-Gray Thanks!
oberkc Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 No need to change the IOLinc. Change only the sensor. I don't remember "normally open" or "normally closed", either but understand you need the opposite type that came with the kit. My educated guess is that you would need a NC type so I believe your $5 sensor would work. BTW,I assume normally closed switches are those that are closed in the relaxed state...that is, when gap is wide. Hopefully, others will correct if I have it backwards.
larryllix Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 (edited) There has been mention a few times regarding the particular model of sensor people are happy with and resolves these issues. A few searches should sleuth these links out. Normally open and normally closed are terms applied to electrical contacts to indicate their fully de-energised or deactivated positions. The problem comes when devices have two states that are "at rest" or "deactivated", thus blurring the "normal" definition for those devices. Examples would be latching relays that stay in either state without power, large breakers and possibly small breakers etc.. Industry has another way to resolve devices with two quiescent states by labelling contacts as "a" and "b" being the same state as the device or backwards to the device. With a garage door people could argue that the normal state is closed and therefore while the magnet is in proximity to the sensor. Then the closed contact would be called "normally closed". This would technically be incorrect as the normal definition does not apply to the device the contact is mounted on and only applies to the electrical contact device, itself. When you have the sensor in your hand, alone, (not you) the open contact would be called "NO" and "NC" for the closed contact. We liked to use terms like "usually closed" for a normally open contact that was usually activated by a magnet or being pushed. Totally confused yet? Edited September 15, 2015 by larryllix
Teken Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 I will keep this simple. Yes the one in your link is fine! Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
ryanmead83 Posted September 15, 2015 Author Posted September 15, 2015 Haha thanks makes sense! It works now but just figure it would be more reliable I think having a sensor that shows On when the door is open vs closed as less programs required if using it with a KPL.
larryllix Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Reversing the logic is very easy but the problem, as I recall, is when you do a Query ISY the I/O Linc reports the incorrect status, for a fleeting moment, and then your programs get triggered where you don't want them to be triggered. Middle of the night reports your garage door is open and when you look "There it is...gone!" (Eastern Canuckistani accent)
jerlands Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 If I want to swap it, does that mean I can just buy the same type of $5 2 wire sensor I'd be using for my alarm, the magnetic contact type one? Or do I have to change wiring on the IOLinc as well? Or do I even need another sensor? Would something like this work? https://www.aartech.ca/product/00/AMS-37/Amseco-Industrial-Surface-Contact-2-Inch-Gap-Gray The Amseco AMS-37 will have an "On" state with the garage door closed. Seco-Larm SM-226L-3Q has both NO and NC so no matter which convention is used to define it you can find one to suit your needs Jon
ryanmead83 Posted September 15, 2015 Author Posted September 15, 2015 Looks like that Seco-Larm one is $77 plus $30 shipping on Amazon.ca lol what a joke. Not sold by Amazon though which is why. Isn't reversing the logic a problem with the way it is now vs using the proper sensor? I remember there's a setting to swap them so that they do show properly, but then at 3am the query messes that up. Is that what you're referring to Larry? Or do you mean I'd have that problem regardless of if I use a NC vs NO type sensor?
Brian H Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 (edited) About $18.00 from Smarthome. Though shipping the Canada has been mentioned as expensive when Smarthome ships things. http://www.smarthome.com/seco-larm-sm-226l-3-magnetic-garage-door-contact-switch.html Edited September 15, 2015 by Brian H
stusviews Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 You must be looking at the wrong sensor @ $77.00. Here's an ideal all-weather sensor.
larryllix Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 (edited) You must be looking at the wrong sensor @ $77.00. Here's an ideal all-weather sensor. Same switch item. Yup to Canada that will put about $74.83 on your Credit card going to T.O. And you haven't checked out yet to discover their surprise free shipping concept and prepaid taxes with agent fees adding another $45 to the bill. This is one of the reasons Canadians are stopping buying from the USA and going to China, unfortunately. eBay is doing it too. Stick with aartech.ca. You can't beat their prices in Canuckistan. Edited September 15, 2015 by larryllix
Brian H Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 This one is also a Form C. So it has both a NC and NO contact to choose from. aartech.ca $19.95 CAD https://www.aartech.ca/odc-59b-amseco-garage-door-magnetic-contact-form-c.html
oberkc Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 The Amseco AMS-37 will have an "On" state with the garage door closed. I offer up another consideration. Whether a given sensor has an ON or OFF state with the door closed is also dependent on how the sensor is mounted. A sensor could, for example be mounted in such a way that it is activated (energized, magnetized) only when the door is fully opened, rather than activated when the door is fully closed. The question becomes how does one treat a door that is neither fully open or fully closed. Do you want to consider any door position that is not fully closed to be open, or do you want to consider a door not fully open to be closed? For me, I consider a door open when not fully closed, even if only partially open. Answering questions like these could offer alternative solutions.
larryllix Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 (edited) Here is another but without the nice armoured cable to your box to protect your sensitive wiring. https://www.aartech.ca/product/00/AMS-37B-GY/Amseco-Industrial-Surface-Contact-2-Inch-Gap-Form-C-Gray From T.O you could walk over and pick it up. Everytime I order from aartech.ca it comes the next day, if ordered early, or the second day, if not. Shipping is usually $9.95 for medium size orders. Edited September 15, 2015 by larryllix
jerlands Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 I offer up another consideration. Whether a given sensor has an ON or OFF state with the door closed is also dependent on how the sensor is mounted. A sensor could, for example be mounted in such a way that it is activated (energized, magnetized) only when the door is fully opened, rather than activated when the door is fully closed. The question becomes how does one treat a door that is neither fully open or fully closed. Do you want to consider any door position that is not fully closed to be open, or do you want to consider a door not fully open to be closed? For me, I consider a door open when not fully closed, even if only partially open. Answering questions like these could offer alternative solutions. If the switch is mounted to activate when the door is fully open then any state 2" away from the sensor the switch indicates closed; where as if mounted to activate with the door is closed the door actually won't be a full 2" open when it deactivates. I use a timer to close the garage door if left open longer than 3 minutes but can throw a switch that will cancel the timer (also putting something in the way of the sensing light works Jon...
larryllix Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 (edited) Sensing when a garage door is open would be a pretty loose situation for detection. The physical location of the door can vary a fair bit and even wind could possibly fool the sensor into thinking the door closed temporarily. The closed position is very solid for positioning as it is pressed against gaskets seals from top to bottom and vertically at the bottom for absolute position. Interesting possibility to note: If the safety release that engages the door to the drive chain is released and your HA attempts to close the door, manually or automatically, are you going to come home to a garage door closer that has been running all day because the limit switch contacts never got satisfied? hmmmmm.... Me thinks the drive train is sensed by the door limits and not the actual door, making this point moot. Been a long time since I have done this. I guess this is why the thieves just poke your release and open your garage door to get in. reminder to all to block the access via the top of the garage door to the release mechanism for security. Edited September 15, 2015 by larryllix
stusviews Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Most would consider a door as open when it's not completely closed. A light is off when it's not on at all. Closed and off are clear, even thought here are varying levels of open and on.
ryanmead83 Posted September 16, 2015 Author Posted September 16, 2015 Thanks everyone! Yes aartech.ca is my go to, they are super fast usually get everything in 1-2 days. They are in Oshawa, there's been a few times I've checked to see if it's worth driving over to pick something up but it's still almost an hour from downtown Toronto so not worth it. Amazon is my go to since returns as super easy with no restocking fee or return shipping fee and I normally do same day delivery, but if they don't carry something then I go to Aartech. I had thought before about doing the sensor on fully open but then figured it's less reliable as door could be open 3 feet and you'd think it was closed. Finding a sensor won't be that hard though there's lots of options, just have to also see how worth it it is. I bought the Garage IOLinc over a year ago but really never use it and was going to sell it. After I put my alarm in I remembered that most sensors for it were super cheap, the wired ones like $3-5 for many. So thought maybe they would be the same and figured if it's just a few bucks to make the door opener a bit more useful for me I'd keep it. If it will be $20+ I'll have to see. Not that that breaks the bank or anything, it's more just nice to have as we rarely really park in the garage.
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