danbutter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I tried to figure this out by looking at some other threads after searching, but it still isn't clear to me what config I need. It is a 3-way circuit. 2 switches. In the fixture box I have 2 pieces of romex. Black, white and red conductors. Red ties to other red. White from wire one ties to black of wire two and then the remaining black and white (one from each wire) go to light fixture. I tried to see if I could get the micro in the switch box, but there is another switch in there and five pieces of romex...no room at all left in that box so not an option. Is this possible? Link to comment
oberkc Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Yes, it is possible. You may, however, have to replace both swit hes with insteon. Was that your intention? Link to comment
danbutter Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 My intention was to put the micro module behind the last switch in the circuit between the switch and the load/light as I have read these things are supposed to be installed. Sadly there is just no room in the switch box so I was attempting to do it in the fixture box. After a bit more studying I have found that there is no always hot wire in the fixture box so I don't believe it is possible. I think my only option is to dig the box out of the wall and replace with a larger one. Not going to be fun, but I can't figure out another way to do it. The existing switches barely fit as it is! Link to comment
oberkc Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Yes, current wiring does not include unswitched hot in fixture box. I believe power is introduced into this circuit at one of you switch boxes. Yes, putting the module in the switch box with power should work, but this may not be the "last" switch. Link to comment
stusviews Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Describe the wiring at each switch box including colors and how they are grouped, for example, a 3-wire cable and two 2-wire cables. Also include which wire is conneced to the black screw and which are connected to brass screws. You can disregard any ground wires. Link to comment
danbutter Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 Okay I can do that tomorrow when I have daylight again. Each switch is in a double gang box with another 3 way (2 switch if it matters) circuit. The one I had open today had six wires (romex) of which only one had a red traveler IIRC. I'll try to get all the details tomorrow. Link to comment
danbutter Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 Okay the kitchen box has two switches for two different 3 way circuits one in the kitchen which I'm not trying to do anything to and the one I want to automate. Each switch in this box has a single romex to the switch. White, black and red. White to brass, black to black and red to the single brass on the other side. The mudroom box has two switches and 6 wires (romex) 5 are black and white and the 6th is black white and red. These switches are both ones that I would like to automate, but this box is crammed full. Anyway the one switch I was trying to do has red on the single brass screw and black from the same romex on the other brass while the black screw has black from another romex. I'm betting this is the hot since it goes into a wirenut with 4 total black conductors. The other switch in this box is on another circuit and it has black from a black bundle on the black screw, black from another wire on the top brass screw and white on the single brass screw. Hope that all makes sense. Thanks for looking. Link to comment
oberkc Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Yes, the mudroom box is the one with supply. In the kitchen box, the red and white are travelers and the black is the switched hot that connects to the load in the fixture box. In the mud room, the black and red on the brass screws are the travelers that go to the other switch. The white in the RWB cable is neutral to the fixture. Hot is connected to your switch common screw. I must admit that I am having trouble picturing how to wire this with existing conductors, using only a micromodule. The module requires unswitched hot, which is available only in the mudroom box. Unfortunately, the three conductors from this box to the fixtures are taken...two as travelers and one as neutral. All are still needed, which means that there is not a conductor for the switched hot from the module to the fixture. Given this, I am not certain you can do this without two insteon switches (but no micromodule would be needed). Perhaps stusviews or someone else has other thoughts. Link to comment
danbutter Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 Yeah I'm thinking that I will have to gut the mudroom box (which is an old small metal box) rip it out and replace with a new larger plastic box. Thing is that even if it were deeper I think it would be tough to get two (since I want both of those lights automated) micro modules or two switchlincs into this box. I may have to get a three gang box and leave a blank or something. If anyone else has thoughts on how I could independantly control two lights in a stuffed full of wire 2 gang box I'd be glad to hear them. Link to comment
stusviews Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 You have not described ALL the wires in the Mud Room box. Also, you'll probably be best served with a deep old work box: http://www.amazon.com/Carlon-BH234R-Outlet-8-Inch-Length/dp/B0007N738M/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1447033923&sr=8-1&keywords=deep+old+work+2-gang+box Link to comment
danbutter Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 I guess I may need a little direction then. I know there are two breakers I have to turn off to get the lights these switches control off. Other than that the one with the red is going to the mudroom light and I don't know where the other five come from or go except there is a light on one end of the other swith and it's a 3 way also. I know there is one huge bundle of neutral wires and two groups of black wires. What else would you expect to see Stu? Link to comment
stusviews Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The bundle of white wires was missing from your description. But, something is amiss. At the kitchen, the travelers (connected to the brass screws) are white and red, at the Mud Room the travelers are black and red. You will need to remove the fixture and describe the wiring there. Describe the two groups of black wires in more detail, what is connected to what. Are all six white wires connected together? Link to comment
danbutter Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Trying to attach a picture. Looks like not all of the whites are together. Maybe one is being used as a traveler? In the fixture box I have 2 pieces of romex. Black, white and red conductors. Red ties to other red. White from wire one ties to black of wire two and then the remaining black and white (one from each wire) go to light fixture. Link to comment
oberkc Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 You will need to remove the fixture and describe the wiring there. Stusview...fixture wiring was described in original post. In fixture box, one white conductor connected to one black conductor (forming one of the travelers). Everything matched up beautifully when I drew it up. Power in at mudroom. RBW cable from there to fixture, and RBW from fixture to kitchen switch. Yes, I am assuming white from mudroom to fixture is neutral (it was not stated what this white was connected to). If anyone else has thoughts on how I could independantly control two lights in a stuffed full of wire 2 gang box I'd be glad to hear them. I thought you were trying to control a single fixture controlled by a three-way circuit, with one switch in one box, and another switch in another. I remain convinced you CAN do this if you are willing to forgo the micro module and replace the two switches with insteon. Link to comment
danbutter Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 I thought you were trying to control a single fixture controlled by a three-way circuit, with one switch in one box, and another switch in another. I am, but two times. Both circuits are 3 way and one end of each of those circuits are in the mudroom box and seem to be getting power from there. So I'm assuming that both circuits must be controlled from this box. I could be mistaken on that though. That's why I'm asking the experts here! Sorry that I'm missing some details along the way. Link to comment
oberkc Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The trick, in my mind, on any of these three-way circuits is to identify where power is introduced...at the fixture, or at one of the switches (an which one). There sounds like a lot going on in that mudroom box, and I suspect it all comes in there. Are both of the fixtures controlled by switches in the same two boxes, kitchen and mudroom? Link to comment
danbutter Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 One (the one I started to work on) is both kitchen and mudroom, but the other is mudroom and front entrance. That is where it looks like they might have used the white as a traveller. Definitely a lot in that box as you can see from the picture. Link to comment
stusviews Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Reassess and describe the wiring. You indicated that the Mud Room switch has red and black travelers and included (an unlabelled) image with a white traveler. Is this the kitchen switch? You also talk about two 3-way configurations. oberkc also mention using two SwitchLincs instead of a Micro Module. Is there a particular reason you don't want to do that? Link to comment
danbutter Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 I'll try to poke around and see if I can learn more about it this evening. I was trying to use micro modules to keep the original switches that my family prefers as well as it being half the cost. That being said...If I could fit switchlincs in the box I'd be done already. The existing switches barely fit now! Link to comment
oberkc Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 If you have not already done so, draw the wiring diagram for the two switches and fixture. This is much easier to visualize than trying to do so in your head. Depending on your familiarity with these circuits, you may need to perform a web search. In case it is not obvious, RBW cables from both switch locations go to fixture box. Link to comment
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