smokegrub Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 I posted earlier about this problem but the location is a long distance from my primary residence and there were yet unanswered questions. I am at that location now and will be there for about 10 days. I am not an electrician, but I am competent to wire in such devices given detailed instructions. I hope I can once again draw upon your expertise. There are only 2 wires in the wall switch and only 2 wires in the ceiling to the fan. Attached are a wiring sketch, a photo of the wall switch and photos of the fan installation. I understand from some previous feedback that the KPL will not be able to directly control the load to the fan light when installed. I assume, however, that I will be able to write a program and control the light using the KPL. Is that true? If so, would you give me detailed instructions as to how to wire the KPL and the FanLinc? If possible can you provide these by wire color and location? Thanks.
Xathros Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 What you describe above makes not sense to me. There needs to be more than 2 wires at either the ceiling box or the wall switch box. Maybe they are hiding above the fan hanger in the ceiling box. The KPL will not directly control any load. Cap it's red wire. Instead, Scenes and/or programs will be used to instruct the Fanlinc based on input from the KPL via Insteon links. Here is what I suspect you have and need: -Xathros
oberkc Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 I suspect you wiring diagram is not correct. So, you have a single cable coming into switch box with black and white conductors, correct? I cannot tell from pictures, but do you have two cables at ceiling box, both with black and white conductors? If so, connect black and white conductors at ceiling box. To those, connect black and white from fanlinc. At the switch box, connect black conductor to black white from keypadlinc, and white to white. Cap the red wire. Back at the ceiling, connect whit from the fan to the bundle of other whites. Connect red from the fanlincnto the wire powering the fan. Connect blue from the fanlincnto to the wire powering the lights. You will also have to program (link) the keypad and fanlincnto.
smokegrub Posted November 12, 2015 Author Posted November 12, 2015 Note the third photo from the left. That is what I see at the ceiling level above the fan--a black and a white wire.
smokegrub Posted November 12, 2015 Author Posted November 12, 2015 Note the third photo from the left. That is what I see at the ceiling level above the fan--a black and a white wire. I apologize. I see how I created the confusion with my diagram. There are two wires at the wall switch and these same two wires travel to the fan.
Xathros Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 I apologize. I see how I created the confusion with my diagram. There are two wires at the wall switch and these same two wires travel to the fan. 2 blacks and 2 whites at the wall switch? Or one black and one white? -Xathros
stusviews Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 You will need to remove the fan bracket attached to the ceiling box to access the wiring.
smokegrub Posted November 12, 2015 Author Posted November 12, 2015 2 blacks and 2 whites at the wall switch? Or one black and one white? -Xathros There is one black and one white at the switch and one black and one white at the fan.
smokegrub Posted November 12, 2015 Author Posted November 12, 2015 There is one black and one white at the switch and one black and one white at the fan. Yes
Xathros Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) There is one black and one white at the switch and one black and one white at the fan. In this case there MUST be a third location(Second switch location or junction box) that both the wall box and ceiling box run to and gather power from. I still have a sneaky feeling that there are more wires in the ceiling box. Can you pull the fan bracket and look further up into that ceiling hole? -Xathros Edited November 12, 2015 by Xathros
stusviews Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 Yes That is not possible unless: 1) you didn't remove the fan bracket from the ceiling box or 2) there is another electric box somewhere.
smokegrub Posted November 12, 2015 Author Posted November 12, 2015 In this case there MUST be a third location(Second switch location or junction box) that both the wall box and ceiling box run to and gather power from. I still have a sneaky feeling that there are more wires in the ceiling box. Can you pull the fan bracket and look further up into that ceiling hole? -Xathros This project is obviously too much for me. I have so much to do with the winter shutdown of this place that I am going to button the fan back up and wait until next May to take this on. I will return with the project then. In the interim can I use a ToggleLinc and replace the switch to give me remote on/off capability. If so, how do I wire it given there are only the two wires at the switch. Thanks for everything.
Xathros Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) This project is obviously too much for me. I have so much to do with the winter shutdown of this place that I am going to button the fan back up and wait until next May to take this on. I will return with the project then. In the interim can I use a ToggleLinc and replace the switch to give me remote on/off capability. If so, how do I wire it given there are only the two wires at the switch. Thanks for everything. Not given the current unknown situation with the wiring. At a minimum, you would need 3 insulated conductors running from the switch box to the fan box (assuming the power was available in the fan box). -Xathros Edited November 12, 2015 by Xathros
smokegrub Posted November 12, 2015 Author Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) I will get a qualified electrician to help me next spring. Edited November 12, 2015 by smokegrub
stusviews Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 There is no way to wire a ToggleLinc or any Insteon device without getting at the wires inside the ceiling box (by removing the bracket). Even a 2-wire switch won't work due to the fan.
stusviews Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) I will get a qualified electrician to help me next spring. The bracket is held in place with two screws. Once that's done, the wiring should be easy. An electrician may not be familiar with Insteon wiring. Be sure to show the electrician the Owner's Manual. Edited November 12, 2015 by stusviews
smokegrub Posted November 12, 2015 Author Posted November 12, 2015 The bracket is held in place with two screws. Once that's done, the wiring should be easy. An electrician may not be familiar with Insteon wiring. Be sure to show the electrician the Owner's Manual. Will do.
ScottAvery Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) Save yourself the mental anguish and just take down that fan mount. As the other posters have pointed out, there are most assuredly more wires hidden behind it. Only the required two wires would be pulled out to connect to the fan. The other connections were probably neatly wound around the handle of a screwdriver to make a small coil and pushed into the covered box before the mount was screwed in place. You will find a collection of wires that won't quite match Xathros' drawing above, because they are currently in a switch loop. There will be a white connected to black. You will succeed by rewiring per that drawing in post # 2. Edited November 12, 2015 by ScottAvery
ScottAvery Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) Further, since you are away from home and probably don't have all of your tools, when you look in the ceiling box it is most likely you will see a white and black connected with a wire nut, a loose white connected to the fan neutral, and a loose black connected to the fan's line/power. The white in the connected pair will be the one going to the switch, the loose black coming back from the switch, the loose white is the neutral returning to your panel, and the black in the connected pair is incoming power coming from the panel. Take a look and see how close this guess is. This is standard practice among lazy/cheap/efficient (your choice) electricians wiring the shortest possible runs, and is why we end up without neutral at some switches. edit: it is also possible that there be even more wires in there if the electrician wired more outlets through this nexus. If so, it will still be the odd white connected to black bundle that needs to be adjusted. All blacks together. All whites together. All done. See Post #2! Edited November 12, 2015 by ScottAvery
smokegrub Posted November 12, 2015 Author Posted November 12, 2015 Further, since you are away from home and probably don't have all of your tools, when you look in the ceiling box it is most likely you will see a white and black connected with a wire nut, a loose white connected to the fan neutral, and a loose black connected to the fan's line/power. The white in the connected pair will be the one going to the switch, the loose black coming back from the switch, the loose white is the neutral returning to your panel, and the black in the connected pair is incoming power coming from the panel. Take a look and see how close this guess is. This is standard practice among lazy/cheap/efficient (your choice) electricians wiring the shortest possible runs, and is why we end up without neutral at some switches. edit: it is also possible that there be even more wires in there if the electrician wired more outlets through this nexus. If so, it will still be the odd white connected to black bundle that needs to be adjusted. All blacks together. All whites together. All done. See Post #2! Thanks again, but the fan is up and running. I will copy the foregoing and pull everything down when we next return and I have had time to better educate myself.
stusviews Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 This is standard practice among lazy/cheap/efficient (your choice) electricians wiring the shortest possible runs, and is why we end up without neutral at some switches. Two wires at the switch is neither lazy nor cheap. It is efficient, This was standard practice for decades and fully within the constraints of the NEC until only a few years ago (2011) when including a neutral in a switch box became required. Until the advent of automated switches there was absolutely no reason to run a neutral to an end run switch box. BTW, the earliest switches interrupted the neutral wire so there was no line wire at the switch
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