fahrvergnuugen Posted December 9, 2015 Posted December 9, 2015 A friend of mine gave me some old unused Insteon toggle lincs that he had laying around. Two of them are newer and work fine with my other modern insteon gear (ISY included). One of them is obviously much older than the other two. It has a sticker on the faceplate that says "V1.0" and is branded "Smarthome" instead of "Smartlabs". I hooked it up and to my dismay, it won't control the local load. I thought maybe it had a bad relay, so I took it apart. Here's what I found: I'm no EE, but this looks like a shoddy bomb casing filled with used pinball machine parts! There's no load relay, no microcontroller, no nothing. Just a few diodes, resistors and an LED. What purpose did this thing serve? I'm so confused!
Brian H Posted December 9, 2015 Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) Sorry that model and any of the other V1 models are strictly X10. The Insteon models used the SAME basic model names. So in the beginning when both where being sold. V1 was the X10 only. V2 was the Insteon version that could could do both Insteon and X10. Example a 2001SHL was an AppliancLinc V1 and a 2456S3 is an ApplianceLinc V2. After years of no longer selling the older X10 ones. The V2 at the end of the model name was removed. The switch in the photo is just a slave switch. To control a V1 Togglelinc. That has the dimmer circuitry in it. When used in a three way switch setup. 2389_web.pdf Edited December 9, 2015 by Brian H
Techman Posted December 9, 2015 Posted December 9, 2015 Maybe you should give the Smithsonian a call to see if they want it. They could put it in a display case next to the Wright Brothers plane.
fahrvergnuugen Posted December 9, 2015 Author Posted December 9, 2015 Ahh that makes so much more sense now. I didn't know that they made slave switches that were designed to be physically wired to the master switch.
Brian H Posted December 9, 2015 Posted December 9, 2015 X10 also had a Companion Switch. That controlled the main switch with the load control. When they started Insteon. The companion-slave method was discontinued. Now you cross link the two switches and one probably has its load wire capped off.
mwester Posted December 9, 2015 Posted December 9, 2015 X10 also had a Companion Switch. That controlled the main switch with the load control. When they started Insteon. The companion-slave method was discontinued. Now you cross link the two switches and one probably has its load wire capped off. Which is, actually, rather sad when you think about it. There's no real reason why they couldn't have implemented a companion-slave mechanism with an Insteon device; it would vastly reduce the cost of a three-way/four-way circuit! I suspect that the real reason, since it can't be a technical reason, is that a companion-slave switch would have reduced their net profits, and at the time Insteon was so far ahead of X10 that they felt no competitive pressure to do so. Now that Zwave, which DOES implement the companion-slave switch, is making inroads, perhaps Insteon will rethink this, and provide us with a lower-cost multi-way switching mechanism. I know I have a bunch of multi-way lights (one has four switch locations, the others are three locations) that I'm not intending to convert to Insteon simply because of the cost of multiple switches/dimmers -- I'm willing to spring for one switch plus some amount, but not 3x or 4x the cost! That's money Insteon/SmartHome is leaving on the table.
fahrvergnuugen Posted December 9, 2015 Author Posted December 9, 2015 Which is, actually, rather sad when you think about it. There's no real reason why they couldn't have implemented a companion-slave mechanism with an Insteon device; it would vastly reduce the cost of a three-way/four-way circuit! I suspect that the real reason, since it can't be a technical reason, is that a companion-slave switch would have reduced their net profits, and at the time Insteon was so far ahead of X10 that they felt no competitive pressure to do so. Now that Zwave, which DOES implement the companion-slave switch, is making inroads, perhaps Insteon will rethink this, and provide us with a lower-cost multi-way switching mechanism. I know I have a bunch of multi-way lights (one has four switch locations, the others are three locations) that I'm not intending to convert to Insteon simply because of the cost of multiple switches/dimmers -- I'm willing to spring for one switch plus some amount, but not 3x or 4x the cost! That's money Insteon/SmartHome is leaving on the table. Totally agree! My house is full of 3 & 4 way switches, it makes this upgrade process pretty painful for the wallet. The fan in my great room has 5 switches connected to it!!
stusviews Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) Z-Wave is entirely RF which makes a companion switch relatively easy to accomplish. The power line X10 protocol requires one wire between the master and slave. That's not difficult in an existing 3-way configuration because the wires are already in place. The X10 slave switch can't be installed in a different location other than an existing 3-way configuration. Insteon could probably make an RF only slave switch. OTOH, what if one wanted/needed a multiple button device in the slave position (I have a few.). Now, users would be clamoring for a wireless (RF only) Keypad. Either device would require giving up the dual mesh ability that make Insteon more reliable. BTW, I'm in no way opposed to a companion switch. I have no problem when it comes to saving $$ Edit: I looked over some Z-Wave slave switch manuals. Seems that they can only be installed as a replacement for an existing multi-way configuration, same as the X10 protocol, even the same yellow wire as X10 used. Edited December 10, 2015 by stusviews
fahrvergnuugen Posted December 10, 2015 Author Posted December 10, 2015 Edit: I looked over some Z-Wave slave switch manuals. Seems that they can only be installed as a replacement for an existing multi-way configuration, same as the X10 protocol, even the same yellow wire as X10 used. It still seems like a nice option to have IMO - I wouldn't mind a cheap slave switch that just trips the master relay. I don't see a downside really, especially for basement lights, garage lights, etc where dimmers aren't used. Oh well, smarthome had it and then they axed it. I guess the decision was already made!
larryllix Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) It still seems like a nice option to have IMO - I wouldn't mind a cheap slave switch that just trips the master relay. I don't see a downside really, especially for basement lights, garage lights, etc where dimmers aren't used. Oh well, smarthome had it and then they axed it. I guess the decision was already made! Except for one thing. You need to have three wire wiring in your walls to make the three wire extension work. A feature of the Insteon method is that 3-wire prewiring is not necessary to add a 3-wire switching scheme. From what I can remember the 3-way extension unit was not much cheaper anyway. Currently I have a 3-way setup between two switches at opposite ends of my house where I have a deck, with entrance and switch, and a front porch with entrance and switch, and respective lights for each. I am not currently using a scene to make this happen but rather a program in order to maintain individual control of each bank of lights. The Fast On/Off commands on either switch can operate them both, from either switch, if desired. Edited December 10, 2015 by larryllix
mwester Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 Except for one thing. You need to have three wire wiring in your walls to make the three wire extension work. A feature of the Insteon method is that 3-wire prewiring is not necessary to add a 3-wire switching scheme. From what I can remember the 3-way extension unit was not much cheaper anyway. Currently I have a 3-way setup between two switches at opposite ends of my house where I have a deck, with entrance and switch, and a front porch with entrance and switch, and respective lights for each. I am not currently using a scene to make this happen but rather a program in order to maintain individual control of each bank of lights. The Fast On/Off commands on either switch can operate them both, from either switch, if desired. I'm not suggesting that Insteon REMOVE the ability to do multi-way switching they way they do now -- that's a very useful feature for all the reasons stated. I'm suggesting that for those of us who already have the wiring in place for a multi-way switch that it would be very nice if Insteon would provide a lower-cost alternative that USES that extra wire, instead of leaving it abandoned in the wall!
fahrvergnuugen Posted December 10, 2015 Author Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) I'm not suggesting that Insteon REMOVE the ability to do multi-way switching they way they do now -- that's a very useful feature for all the reasons stated. I'm suggesting that for those of us who already have the wiring in place for a multi-way switch that it would be very nice if Insteon would provide a lower-cost alternative that USES that extra wire, instead of leaving it abandoned in the wall! So this device: http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2342-242-mini-remote-switch.html Is almost exactly what we are talking about (they also make 4 & 8 scene kepads). All they would need to do is make a hard wired version for power with no battery at all. Unfortunately, they are almost the same price as a full blown switchlink Edited December 10, 2015 by fahrvergnuugen
Brian H Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) At one time they had a three way kit. One of the two had no load output and they where linked at the factory. Biggest downside was the kit was only a few bucks less than two full featured ones. If memory serves me. Edited December 10, 2015 by Brian H
larryllix Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 I'm not suggesting that Insteon REMOVE the ability to do multi-way switching they way they do now -- that's a very useful feature for all the reasons stated. I'm suggesting that for those of us who already have the wiring in place for a multi-way switch that it would be very nice if Insteon would provide a lower-cost alternative that USES that extra wire, instead of leaving it abandoned in the wall! Agreed. If Insteon stopped this capability they would have to redefine the whole Insteon protocol so that most devices wouldn't work. IIRC, the X10 3way system was a special switch at the load end anyway. There was an extra wire for the remote dummy to input a 120vac pulse and switch the master load switch. The master cost more and the remote cost less. This would be no different for Insteon. A special load end switch would need to be created with an extra terminal/wire for the remote input. A special controller only switch could be created without the triac but with all other hardware the same the special PCB without the triac included would cost more as a smaller production quantity item. Almost always stopping the routine production to remove a part from being installed on a PCB costs extra. I think I still have a few 3way X10 switches in my junk box. I do remember the wire colours included an extra blue wire and were scrambled to electrician standard types, causing confusion. If you didn't have the instructions they were hard to figure out every time you got one of the junk box. There was no Internet manuals and I don't think SmartypantsHome had dial up at 300 baud either.
stusviews Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 My 3-way X10 switches always used "standard" colors. The master used black for line, white for neutral and red for load. The traveler (there is no "standard" for travelers) was yellow. The slave and black, white and yellow. BTW, I placed quotes around standard because the code does not dictate wire colors except that white or gray be the only colors for neutral and that ground be green (or bare). Line, load and travelers can be any other color. A marker, such as phasing tape, can be used to identify the use of the wire if the color is other than those stated.
larryllix Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 My 3-way X10 switches always used "standard" colors. The master used black for line, white for neutral and red for load. The traveler (there is no "standard" for travelers) was yellow. The slave and black, white and yellow. BTW, I placed quotes around standard because the code does not dictate wire colors except that white or gray be the only colors for neutral and that ground be green (or bare). Line, load and travelers can be any other color. A marker, such as phasing tape, can be used to identify the use of the wire if the color is other than those stated. Here is a pic of one of the pairs I have. The load wire is blue and the traveller is red. The remote doesn't have any wire colours.
stusviews Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 Wow, those must be old. As I mentioned, load and traveler can be any color (other than the restricted neutral or ground colors), but the slave is interesting, live-live-switch. No wonder a manual was needed
larryllix Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) Yeah. Looking at a handful of my two wire, three wire, with and without neutral connections, all load wires are blue, same as your picture. Funny to see two wires out of some, a black and a blue wire only. Edited December 11, 2015 by larryllix
stusviews Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 Most ceiling fan/light combinations use blue for the light and red for the fan.
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