stusviews Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) That's not unusual. I have a button for each garage door that's a responder to the sensor (a controller) and is a controller of the relay (a responder), both in the same scene. The controller (sensor) lights the button's LED when the garage door is not fully closed and turns off the LED when the garage door is fully closed. The button also operates the garage door (relay). Edited January 21, 2016 by stusviews
oberkc Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 That's not unusual. I have a button for each garage door that's a responder to the sensor (a controller) and is a controller of the relay (a responder), both in the same scene. The controller (sensor) lights the button's LED when the garage door is not fully closed and turns off the LED when the garage door is fully closed. The button also operates the garage door (relay). It is getting late, and I may be having a brain cramp, but i dont think one wants the relay and sensor in the same scene. Would not one run the risk that the sensor triggers the relay? At my house, I have two separate scenes for eac button. One scene has button as controller and relay as responder. Then there is a second scene with sensor as controller and button as respnder. I have no scenes than include both relay and sensor.
MWareman Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I'm with oberkc - if the IOLinc sensor is in the same scene (as a controller) with the relay (as a responder), then I think we've found the cause. A missed 'close' signal may trigger the relay when the 'Query All' reaches the device, and the sensor changes to the corrected state. This would also explain why you are not able to reproduce it. Edited January 21, 2016 by MWareman
stusviews Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 But the "Query All" occurred after the garage door opened.
MWareman Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Something caused the status of the IOLinc sensor to get updated though. Perhaps before the posted log. Perhaps an event not logged. If not the 'All On Off' program, what? It's not in the log. Something did it though. Either way, putting the IOLinc sensor as a controller of a scene that the IOLinc really is a responder to will likely cause uncommanded openings at some point when you use the IOLinc as a garage door controller. (If this is indeed the case) Edited January 21, 2016 by MWareman
oberkc Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 . Either way, putting the IOLinc sensor as a controller of a scene that the IOLinc really is a responder to will likely cause uncommanded openings at some point when you use the IOLinc as a garage door controller. (If this is indeed the case) These are my fears, as well. Hypothesise...if a garage door is open and one commands closure, what happens when the door closes and the sensor (controller) changes state? Would it not issue a new ON (or OFF, depending on sensor) to the relay (responder), potentially causing the door to open again? While it may be possible to avoid this with great care applied to the momentary modes, I am missing the purpose in establishing this scene relationship and it appears to me to be all risk and little reward. I dont think we can discount this as a potential contributory factor. On the other hand, I am a little fuzzy on whether a query would cause the door to open solely based on the scene relationship. The query, I understand, potentially updates the ISY status and would not necessarily be the equivalent of a scene command, so I assume that this would trigger only programs, not scenes. Whether it is scenes or query programs or something else, unless there is good reason for having them and that the unintended consequences are understood and mitigated, simple is better. It may be time for blackbird to start fresh with this IOLinc. There appears to be a lot going on here.
oberkc Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I dont know if it has been suggested, but I would definitely be checking the logs to determine if there are other programs, beyond the two query programs, that trigger around 0257. Imwould also exploit the find/replace function to be sure that I knew with certainty which programs include the IOLinc. Edited January 21, 2016 by oberkc
Blackbird Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 The query for the garage wasn't on a schedule and query all was set for 3am. The only scheduled program for 2:57am was the all lights off which doesn't include the iolinc
Blackbird Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 To me it seems the all lights off is related because it was at the exact time the door opened and this all off program is new (maybe a week or 2 old) and before the program I never had the door open by itself. I will look at changing the scene and separating the sensor and relay
Blackbird Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 Next step is to do a visual confirmation the wires leading into the various I/O ports are properly seated and no bare wire is present. I've seen lots of installs where the bare wire was too long and some random movement caused the two adjacent wires to connect and initiate a random open / close. Don't rely on simply looking at it plugged in, wiggle the wire and see. If nothing happens unplug it and really look and pull on the wires to make sure all of them are seated and tighten down. I didn't see any problems with the wires
Teken Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 I didn't see any problems with the wires Did you follow the above and wiggle the wires while the unit was under power? Did you pull on the cables to ensure they were all secure and tight in the plug jack? If so great and you can move on to the next steps. If not, that would be a next step to validate the install is sound and true.
Blackbird Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 Yes looks good. First week I installed it I had the sensor wire in a place where the door rubbed it and it stripped the wires. Been fixed now but have seen a problem with the wires that goto the garage door opener
jerlands Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 The sensor that comes with the garage door kit recommends a small separation (up to 1/2") install. Unlikely but I'm wondering if there's any flex in your garage door which would allow a strong gust of wind or force by a hand to move it enough to cause a change in status? Jon...
Blackbird Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 The sensor that comes with the garage door kit recommends a small separation (up to 1/2") install. Unlikely but I'm wondering if there's any flex in your garage door which would allow a strong gust of wind or force by a hand to move it enough to cause a change in status? Jon... If it did I would have been notified on my phone
Blackbird Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 I now remember why I had the query program for the garage door. When I use mobilinc for android I open the door fine but the relay stays open so I have to tap it a bunch of times to close the relay then the door. Using the query program, resets the relay to closed as soon as the door is totally open or totally closed.
Teken Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 I now remember why I had the query program for the garage door. When I use mobilinc for android I open the door fine but the relay stays open so I have to tap it a bunch of times to close the relay then the door. Using the query program, resets the relay to closed as soon as the door is totally open or totally closed. I believe that was indicated earlier on from another forum member. As I understood it this was done because the current method would not invoke and update the application correctly. Keeping in mind the relay literally opens / closes and what you see is just a visual indicator which has no baring on the real status or operations of the relay. Meaning, once you press open the relay will activate and go back to its resting state. I know it bothers people to see the relay in the (ON) position when they know its actually (OFF). I don't see this behavior at all but can understand why someone would want to see the visual track with the real world condition of the relay. My only concern is that the (Sensor) indicates its true state which it should always be whether it be Open-Close. As an aside many of us have installed a Open-Close (Trigger Linc) sensor on the door as a fail over confirmation. I did this more than five years ago to test out some ideas and back up systems. Using the two in concert with one another does indeed offer more security and door position state.
oberkc Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 I now remember why I had the query program for the garage door. When I use mobilinc for android I open the door fine but the relay stays open so I have to tap it a bunch of times to close the relay then the door. Using the query program, resets the relay to closed as soon as the door is totally open or totally closed. Call me stubborn, but I continue to believe that this should not be necessary, and, in fact, is NOT necessary on my phone with mobilinc. I open mobilinc, select the relay, choose proper (on) command. Done. It is not dependent on the status of the relay, percieved, real, or other. Mine is android version. I can only assume you are on iOS and that it must be different in this regard.
Blackbird Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 Mine is Android and with the querry program it works perfect. Without it does not
MWareman Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 I think querying the relay should be fine. It's querying the sensor that could trigger any program looking for 'status' and cause unexpected results. Separate the sensor and relay - make sure that they are not in the same scene. Change your query to only query the relay - not the relay and sensor. Michael.
Blackbird Posted January 22, 2016 Author Posted January 22, 2016 I think querying the relay should be fine. It's querying the sensor that could trigger any program looking for 'status' and cause unexpected results. Separate the sensor and relay - make sure that they are not in the same scene. Change your query to only query the relay - not the relay and sensor. Michael. it does only query the relay and I did separate it in the scenes. Do I even need to have the relay in a scene?
oberkc Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Do I even need to have the relay in a scene? The only scene in which is my relay is one where the keypad button is controller and relay is responder. If you have no need to control the relay via other insteon device, I see no need for a scene. Keep in mind that the various momentary modes may not be enforced if controlling directly. As I understand it, when controlling directly, only an ON command will actually trigger the relay. OFF will not actuate the relay. It is best for confirmation of this if this turns out to be important in your case.
MWareman Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) it does only query the relay and I did separate it in the scenes. Do I even need to have the relay in a scene?The log shows the sensor was queried as well. I wouldn't have the relay in a scene - there does not seem to be a purpose to this. Just set the relay to momentary and use a program to turn it 'on' to activate the door. Hide the relay device from Mobilinc so its status dosnt get in your way. Have the sensor be the controller of a scene that lights (or unlight) a KPL. Edited January 22, 2016 by MWareman
oberkc Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) My relay is set to momentary BLike I said earlier, I don't believe momentary mode has any effect when controlling the device directly. Regardless of mode, only an ON command will trigger it. Added: for the momentary modes to be enforced, one must be using scenes. If the use of momentary modes is important (such as limiting response only to OFF commands, or responding based upon sensor status), I believe the relay must be in a scene, and the scene be controlled, whether through mobilinc, a program, or an insteon controller. Edited January 22, 2016 by oberkc
MWareman Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) I don't use the IOLinc to control my door (due to Insteon insecurity), but the manual seems to suggest that 'Momentary C' is the correct one for garage doors... http://cache-m2.smarthome.com/manuals/2450.pdf That way, an 'ON' will only ever open the door and never close it, and an 'OFF' will only ever close the door and never open it. The sensor status drives which command will be ignored, and which will be processed. That has the added benefit of the relay status just naturally following the state of the sensor (after the door completes its operation), and means you shouldn't need programs to reset the state of the relay at all... Like I said - don't use one this way - just going by what the manual says. Edited January 22, 2016 by MWareman
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