Insteon problems continue

[john410]

Was taking my Christmas lights down today and I thought I would try to get an Insteon LampLinc module to work with my living room lamp.  No luck.  Here's what I did:

 

1) Factory reset the LampLinc by plugging it in (with lamp on and connected), holding the link button.

2) LampLinc gave out long beep then stopped.

3) Released link button and lamp came on

4) On ISY, selected Start Linking

5) Pressed link button until beep sounded

6) Continue to hold link button until two beeps sounded

7) On ISY, message indicated the device was added.

8 ) Selected Add

9) Got error message: "Cannot determine Insteon engine."

10) Captured event viewer output (level 3) below

 

Important to note:

This outlet is immediately above the circuit breaker box (5 feet away at most) into which the PLC is plugged into (outlet wired directly into breaker box). 

I have installed a phase coupler.

The X10 module works in this outlet and can be controlled by the ISY with no problem.

 

I have posted a couple of times about my Insteon problems.  Everything I read says that Insteon is far more reliable than X10.  I am having exactly the opposite experience.

 

Here's the log (tried with two different LampLinc modules):

 

Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:03 PM : [X10-RX      ] 02 52 FF 80
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:06 PM : [LNK-STAT    ] 02 53 M(01) gid=00 35.9C.41 010E 43
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:06 PM : [35.9C.41 00] Linked device type=01.0E fw=43
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:06 PM : [35 9C 41 0  ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:06 PM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:47 PM : Stop Insteon Device Linking Mode, Final processing to follow
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:47 PM : [LNK-END     ] 02 65 06 : : Unexpected, ignored (65)
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:47 PM : [         X10]       J/Status Request (10)
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:47 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 9C 41 0F 0D 00
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:48 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 35.9C.41 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)
Sat 01/09/2016 12:03:56 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 9C 41 0F 0D 00
Sat 01/09/2016 12:04:05 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 9C 41 0F 0D 00
Sat 01/09/2016 12:04:09 PM : [35 9C 41 0  ] Failed to add device, reason 3
Sat 01/09/2016 12:04:09 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
Sat 01/09/2016 12:04:09 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
Sat 01/09/2016 12:06:37 PM : Start Insteon Device Linking Mode
Sat 01/09/2016 12:06:37 PM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:13 PM : [X10-RX      ] 02 52 FF 80
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:17 PM : [LNK-STAT    ] 02 53 M(01) gid=00 35.99.CD 010E 43
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:17 PM : [35.99.CD 00] Linked device type=01.0E fw=43
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:17 PM : [35 99 CD 0  ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:17 PM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:51 PM : Stop Insteon Device Linking Mode, Final processing to follow
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:51 PM : [         X10]       J/Status Request (10)
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:51 PM : [LNK-END     ] 02 65 06
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:51 PM : [std MH      ] Unexpected Ack imCmd=65 cmd1= 0xCD
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:51 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 99 CD 0F 0D 00
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:51 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 35.99.CD 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:53 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 35.99.CD 3D.C7.29 2F 0D 02           (02)
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:53 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 35.99.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:56 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 99 CD 0F 0D 00
Sat 01/09/2016 12:07:56 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 35.99.CD 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)
Sat 01/09/2016 12:08:05 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 99 CD 0F 0D 00
Sat 01/09/2016 12:08:09 PM : [35 99 CD 0  ] Failed to add device, reason 3
Sat 01/09/2016 12:08:09 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
Sat 01/09/2016 12:08:09 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
 

Edited January 9, 2016 by john410

[Teken]

First you hard reset is incorrect . . . Next you linking method is incorrect based on what you wrote above. Lastly, what have you done to confirm your Insteon network is properly coupled / bridged?

 

In closing have you identified all the noise makers / signal suckers in your home and how did you do so?

[oberkc]

What "phase coupler" do you have installed?

 

When performing factory reset, I am not sure if lamp plugged in matters.

 

When adding to ISY, only hold button until first beep.

[larryllix]

When adding a lamplight to ISY no button pushes are required, only the IP (Insteon Particular) address.

Edited January 9, 2016 by larryllix

[Brian H]

For the Factory Reset.

Holding the set button while plugging it in and holding the set button until the beeping stops. Is perfectly legal and the only way that works, with some versions of the firmware. Like the 2457D2 that does NOT have the Flow Chart method in it. My 2457D2 Lamplincs do not have the Flow Chart Method and I also have to use the set Button Routine.

If yours does follow the Flow Chart Method. Then use it.

 

It sounds like you used the Start Linking method to try and add the LampLinc.

You may want to try the Auto Discover method. That way you input the six digit Insteon ID. That way the manual pushing of the modules Set Button is not needed.

 

I see some X10 messages in your Event Viewer log. Do you by chance have an active X10 Repeater/Coupler in your setup? If so do you know the model?

Edited January 9, 2016 by Brian H

[larryllix]

Yes, the new method is a PITA and I have at least one that does a combination of flowchart and old factory reset. Only half the chart works.

[john410]

First you hard reset is incorrect . . . Next you linking method is incorrect based on what you wrote above. Lastly, what have you done to confirm your Insteon network is properly coupled / bridged?

 

In closing have you identified all the noise makers / signal suckers in your home and how did you do so?

Regarding the reset, others here tell me it is correct.  I tried the flowchart method and could not get it to work.  Someone in another thread recommended the method I used.

 

What linking method should I use?  I am following the instructions for the ISY, page 16: "Start Linking: The majority of Insteon devices can be added using this method..."  I select the "Remove existing links" radio button, which again, the documentation says "This is the default and the best option to choose if you would like a clean start."  The ISY recognizes the LampLinc when I press the link button and shows the address that is printed on it.  When I click Finish, I get the error message about not recognizing the Insteon engine, whatever the heck that is.

 

I don't know how to identify the noise makers or "signal suckers".  Maybe I'm thick headed here, but as I keep noting, my X10 devices work fine.  Everything I read tells me X10 is not as reliable as Insteon.  I am not about to go out and invest another $100 or more in devices to try and make the power line clean when my X10 devices have worked for 15 years without any problems.

 

When adding a lamplight to ISY no button pushes are required, only the IP (Insteon Particular) address.

How can that be.  I thought the only way you could link an Insteon device is by pressing the link button on it.

 

For the Factory Reset.

Holding the set button while plugging it in and holding the set button until the beeping stops. Is perfectly legal and the only way that works, with some versions of the firmware. Like the 2457D2 that does NOT have the Flow Chart method in it. My 2457D2 Lamplincs do not have the Flow Chart Method and I also have to use the set Button Routine.

If yours does follow the Flow Chart Method. Then use it.

 

It sounds like you used the Start Linking method to try and add the LampLinc.

You may want to try the Auto Discover method. That way you input the six digit Insteon ID. That way the manual pushing of the modules Set Button is not needed.

 

I see some X10 messages in your Event Viewer log. Do you by chance have an active X10 Repeater/Coupler in your setup? If so do you know the model?

What is the Autodiscover method?  I don't have an X10 repeater, just a phase coupler.

[john410]

When adding a lamplight to ISY no button pushes are required, only the IP (Insteon Particular) address.

I tried holding the link button until the first beep sounded.  The LED begins flashing green.  I then go back to the ISY and click finish.  Still getting the "Cannot determine Insteon engine." error message.  Here's the log.  What's the "unexpected ACK"?  Is that the source of this problem?

 

Sat 01/09/2016 02:23:32 PM : Start Insteon Device Linking Mode

Sat 01/09/2016 02:23:32 PM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:09 PM : [X10-RX      ] 02 52 FF 80

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:12 PM : [LNK-STAT    ] 02 53 M(01) gid=00 35.99.CD 010E 43

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:12 PM : [35.99.CD 00] Linked device type=01.0E fw=43

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:12 PM : [35 99 CD 0  ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:12 PM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:39 PM : Stop Insteon Device Linking Mode, Final processing to follow

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:39 PM : [         X10]       J/Status Request (10)

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:39 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 99 CD 0F 0D 00

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:39 PM : [LNK-END     ] 02 65 06

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:39 PM : [std MH      ] Unexpected Ack imCmd=65 cmd1= 0xCD

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:40 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 35.99.CD 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:44 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 99 CD 0F 0D 00

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:53 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 99 CD 0F 0D 00

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:57 PM : [35 99 CD 0  ] Failed to add device, reason 3

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:57 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

Sat 01/09/2016 02:24:57 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

Sat 01/09/2016 02:25:04 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 35.99.CD 3D.C7.29 2F 0D 02           (02)

Sat 01/09/2016 02:25:04 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 35.99.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3

Sat 01/09/2016 02:25:04 PM : [iNST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.

 

[Brian H]

Link Management Tab

Add new Insteon Device

Put the six digit Insteon ID the Address Line. Like 12.B3.FF {your devices ID}

Give it a name in the Name Line. I believe if blank it used the devices ID.

Device Type Leave at Auto Discover.

Use the default Remove Existing Links

Hit OK.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Brian H

[john410]

OK, so I looked at the documentation some more and found the "New INSTEON Device." option.  Here's what I did:

1. Factory reset the LampLinc by holding the link button while plugging it in.
2. Waited until it stopped beeping and released the button, lamp came on.
3. On ISY, chose "New Insteon/A10/X10 Device" (I have X10 software option installed).
4. On dialog, entered the address "35.99.CD", gave it a name and left the "Remove existing links option" selected.  Pressed OK.
5. Saw dialog "New Insteon Devices" and the message adding.
6. Got the "Cannot determine Insteon engine" message.

 

Here's the log:

 

Sat 01/09/2016 02:32:00 PM : [35 99 CD    ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY
Sat 01/09/2016 02:32:00 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 99 CD 0F 0D 00
Sat 01/09/2016 02:32:00 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 35.99.CD 0F 0D 00 06                 (00)
Sat 01/09/2016 02:32:09 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 99 CD 0F 0D 00
Sat 01/09/2016 02:32:18 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 35 99 CD 0F 0D 00
Sat 01/09/2016 02:32:22 PM : [35 99 CD 0  ] Failed to add device, reason 3
Sat 01/09/2016 02:32:22 PM : [All         ] Writing 0 bytes to devices
Sat 01/09/2016 02:34:00 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 35.99.CD 3D.C7.29 AF 0D FF           (FF)
Sat 01/09/2016 02:34:01 PM : [std-Direct Nack] 35.99.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Sat 01/09/2016 02:34:01 PM : [iNST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.
Sat 01/09/2016 02:34:30 PM : [        Time] 14:35:01 6(0)
 

[john410]

Link Management Tab

Add new Insteon Device

Put the six digit Insteon ID the Address Line. Like 12.B3.FF {your devices ID}

Give it a name in the Name Line. I believe if blank it used the devices ID.

Device Type Leave at Auto Discover.

Use the default Remove Existing Links

Hit OK.

Thanks, but I just found out about that option myself.  No luck.

 

That's it, I've had enough screwing around with Insteon.  I'm putting my X10 lamp module back on and using it instead.  I'll be sending the LampLincs back to SmartHome next week.

[jerlands]

[35 99 CD 0  ] Failed to add device, reason 3 <<-- reason 3 = lack of communication

35.99.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 <<-- Hops Left=3 indicates good communication

 

These traces contradict one another so it could be you're too close to the PLM.   Try moving it away and see if that helps.

 

 

Jon...

[mwester]

...  Everything I read tells me X10 is not as reliable as Insteon.  I am not about to go out and invest another $100 or more in devices to try and make the power line clean when my X10 devices have worked for 15 years without any problems...

You're clearly frustrated - you expected "reliable" to equate to "noise-tolerant"; that's simply not the way it is.

 

It's rather like comparing a HAM radio operator sending Morse Code with the Internet. Morse Code has no error detection, and no error correction, is limited in terms of what it can send, but oh wow -- the ability to pull a signal out of the noise with a simple on/off Morse Code signal is unbelievable; in fact there's just nothing better ever invented in the presence of weak signals or noise.

 

And so it is with X-10 -- whatever type of problem (noise, or weak signal) you have, the X-10 signal is punching through. And, as far as you know, it's always gotten through correctly (but there's the rub - how do you know? Just like the old telegrams, how do you really KNOW that when the message says "Dick fell off the haywagon" that it wasn't Rick or Nick?? You didn't back then, and you don't with X-10 either - it's just that apparently if it was ever wrong you didn't notice, or perhaps you just didn't care...)

 

If the X-10 stuff works, and you're unwilling to find the noise or signal sucker, that's fine - go with what works for you! Using another analogy, farms with the new-fangled tractors co-existed with farms using the time-tested, reliable, trouble-free, works-great-with-nothing-but-hay-and-water horses...

[john410]

[35 99 CD 0  ] Failed to add device, reason 3 <<-- reason 3 = lack of communication

35.99.CD-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 <<-- Hops Left=3 indicates good communication

 

These traces contradict one another so it could be you're too close to the PLM.   Try moving it away and see if that helps.

 

 

Jon...

Nope.  Just tried the lamplinc on the lamp in my office, probably 60 feet or more from the PLM.  Same "Cannot determine Insteon engine" message.

[Brian H]

I find the J Status Request in some of your log posts interesting.

An X10 J Status Request is all 1 bits in the data stream. 11111111.

That was why I had asked about a active x10 repeater. That you verified you don't have.

You don't have any Smarthome X10 compatible modules with BoosterLinc technologies or the rare two way X10 Modules?

[john410]

You're clearly frustrated - you expected "reliable" to equate to "noise-tolerant"; that's simply not the way it is.

 

It's rather like comparing a HAM radio operator sending Morse Code with the Internet. Morse Code has no error detection, and no error correction, is limited in terms of what it can send, but oh wow -- the ability to pull a signal out of the noise with a simple on/off Morse Code signal is unbelievable; in fact there's just nothing better ever invented in the presence of weak signals or noise.

 

And so it is with X-10 -- whatever type of problem (noise, or weak signal) you have, the X-10 signal is punching through. And, as far as you know, it's always gotten through correctly (but there's the rub - how do you know? Just like the old telegrams, how do you really KNOW that when the message says "Dick fell off the haywagon" that it wasn't Rick or Nick?? You didn't back then, and you don't with X-10 either - it's just that apparently if it was ever wrong you didn't notice, or perhaps you just didn't care...)

 

If the X-10 stuff works, and you're unwilling to find the noise or signal sucker, that's fine - go with what works for you! Using another analogy, farms with the new-fangled tractors co-existed with farms using the time-tested, reliable, trouble-free, works-great-with-nothing-but-hay-and-water horses...

Yes, I am frustrated.  Been trying to get Insteon stuff to work for a couple of months now.  I'm the kind of guy that likes cutting edge stuff.  I'm an EE by degree, have done software/firmware design and coding most of my career.  I understand embedded devices, processors and electronics very well.  I've read the whitepapers on Insteon and understand the protocols and why it is supposed to be more reliable.  But again, that just hasn't been my experience.

 

To use your analogy, my new tractor is broken down and won't start.  My horse is doing fine.  I'll stick with the horse for now.

 

Thanks for everyone's input.  I'll stay tuned to see if someone else has as bad luck as me and if they manage to find a solution.

[john410]

I find the J Status Request in some of your log posts interesting.

An X10 J Status Request is all 1 bits in the data stream. 11111111.

That was why I had asked about a active x10 repeater. That you verified you don't have.

You don't have any Smarthome X10 compatible modules with BoosterLinc technologies or the rare two way X10 Modules?

I have mostly X10 lamp modules.  I have a couple of X10 wall switches, the push button kind, that control the outdoor lights.  I also have what I think is called a ToggleLink? - it's a wall switch that you can tap up and down, and set dim level on it.  I use that for my family room spot lights.

 

Do any of these possibly have "BoosterLinc"?  I was also puzzled by the X10 messages in my log when all I was doing was trying to link Insteon devices.

Edited January 9, 2016 by john410

[larryllix]

Yes, I am frustrated.  Been trying to get Insteon stuff to work for a couple of months now.  I'm the kind of guy that likes cutting edge stuff.  I'm an EE by degree, have done software/firmware design and coding most of my career.  I understand embedded devices, processors and electronics very well.  I've read the whitepapers on Insteon and understand the protocols and why it is supposed to be more reliable.  But again, that just hasn't been my experience.

 

To use your analogy, my new tractor is broken down and won't start.  My horse is doing fine.  I'll stick with the horse for now.

 

Thanks for everyone's input.  I'll stay tuned to see if someone else has as bad luck as me and if they manage to find a solution.

We get a frustrated soul newbie about once every month or so but almost everyone of them work it out and swear by it later.

 

Stop being an EE and start using your knowledge as a technician. This stuff isn't in books as documented rules. You will make it work. I am sure you have had harder jobs and come out on top.

Lots of knowledge and creativity here.

[Brian H]

Might be interesting if you could find the ToggleLinc's Part Number. Maybe on a sticker on the front of the module. Not sure with out looking. If any had the BoosterLinc feature that was known to cause Insteon Issues.

 

I found some old manuals. The 23890 ToggleLinc Dimmer and 23893 ToggleLinc On/Off modules have BoosterLinc technology.  Manuals indicate BoosterLinc Technology can be turned On and Off.

 

Quick test. Turn it off. By removing its power and see if anything changes. If you gently pull the set button on it out until it clicks. That is the Air Gap Power Switch and it disconnects the power. Only caution is after the test. Do NOT push the Set Button past its normal place and all the way in. That would do a factory reset and you would have to reprogram it again.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Brian H