EricK Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 I've not been coming on this forum as much lately, but wanted to give an update about my system. All was well until I began to have some all on events. I tried all recs to stop this behavior including swapping out my nearly two year old plm. The replacement died in about 6 weeks so I bought a new one from Amazon. I still had an all on with the replacement so that did not fix things. Still have not been able to get thru to smart home to replace the replacement. In any case, I pulled my two motion sensors out of service. One was in our mud room, which my wife did not like anyway. The other was in the pantry. Initially I had this set up to turn the lights on with a scene then off with a program. I changed this in an effort to prevent all on events so the off was controlled by the MS. This was annoying since I would turn off the lights but motion would immediately trigger them back on. Since I got rid of the motion sensors I have not had another all on event. Knock on wood. May just be coincidence, but hopefully not. My system also just seems to be working more reliably. I still have a kpl button set up to control a recovery program to turn everything off then run timer programs in case we have another all on event.
Teken Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) I've not been coming on this forum as much lately, but wanted to give an update about my system. All was well until I began to have some all on events. I tried all recs to stop this behavior including swapping out my nearly two year old plm. The replacement died in about 6 weeks so I bought a new one from Amazon. I still had an all on with the replacement so that did not fix things. Still have not been able to get thru to smart home to replace the replacement. In any case, I pulled my two motion sensors out of service. One was in our mud room, which my wife did not like anyway. The other was in the pantry. Initially I had this set up to turn the lights on with a scene then off with a program. I changed this in an effort to prevent all on events so the off was controlled by the MS. This was annoying since I would turn off the lights but motion would immediately trigger them back on. Since I got rid of the motion sensors I have not had another all on event. Knock on wood. May just be coincidence, but hopefully not. My system also just seems to be working more reliably. I still have a kpl button set up to control a recovery program to turn everything off then run timer programs in case we have another all on event. Hello EricK, For the benefit of the forum members can you offer more insight to the new (replacement) PLM with the hardware production and revision number. If you could also please indicate the ISY firmware listed by the controller that would be great. What specifically was seen in this new PLM that failed? Lastly, I don't for see removing the MS as being the final solution in all of this ALL ON / ALL OFF. I realize you're trying everything you possibly can to avoid such an issue and understand. You are probably quite aware of my views about the whole thing and for the sake of repeating myself. Its quite impossible a person can walk around the home 24.7.365 for years with nothing changed. Then all of the sudden these events are seen en-mass never mind when not a soul is around. Keeping in mind some people are saying a sensor that was poorly included into a program has caused it, really? So all the people who were asleep, away from the home had a ghost trip a MS and the program(s) caused this? Unlikely . . . Then we have wait times being added into programs which are supposed to help negate this issue? Really??? Again, a home that has been operating exactly the same for days, months, years all of the sudden out of the clear blue sky requires wait times to be added into the program(s). Sorry, I can't for the life of me follow this logic . . . Lastly, there are probably 100K homes all across the world that have Insteon in place and 99% of these events have never been seen, why? The hard question people really need to ask is how can a PLM that has no command table to initiate such an event still happen? I've stated this 99999999999999999999999 times more verbose diagnostic logging needs to be made available in the ISY Series Controller. People are trying to tell me and tens of millions of people the controller has no awareness of an entire home turning on / off? Impossible . . . We all know the basics - The PLM stores all the links from all the hardware in the home. These same links are known to the controller. The ISY is physically connected to the PLM and has complete command and control of the Insteon network. As I stated many times (IF) people really want to know where the problem is - remove the controller and you will see. End of story . . . Edited February 5, 2016 by Teken
jerlands Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 For general info... I have 3 MS and have never had any all on events. All three all configured somewhat different but motion is used to change variables only. The only direct command I use from the MS is dusk/dawn. Jon...
EricK Posted February 5, 2016 Author Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) Hello EricK, For the benefit of the forum members can you offer more insight to the new (replacement) PLM with the hardware production and revision number. If you could also please indicate the ISY firmware listed by the controller that would be great. What specifically was seen in this new PLM that failed? Lastly, I don't for see removing the MS as being the final solution in all of this ALL ON / ALL OFF. I realize you're trying everything you possibly can to avoid such an issue and understand. You are probably quite aware of my views about the whole thing and for the sake of repeating myself. Its quite impossible a person can walk around the home 24.7.365 for years with nothing changed. Then all of the sudden these events are seen en-mass never mind when not a soul is around. Keeping in mind some people are saying a sensor that was poorly included into a program has caused it, really? So all the people who were asleep, away from the home had a ghost trip a MS and the program(s) caused this? Unlikely . . . Then we have wait times being added into programs which are supposed to help negate this issue? Really??? Again, a home that has been operating exactly the same for days, months, years all of the sudden out of the clear blue sky requires wait times to be added into the program(s). Sorry, I can't for the life of me follow this logic . . . Lastly, there are probably 100K homes all across the world that have Insteon in place and 99% of these events have never been seen, why? The hard question people really need to ask is how can a PLM that has no command table to initiate such an event still happen? I've stated this 99999999999999999999999 times more verbose diagnostic logging needs to be made available in the ISY Series Controller. People are trying to tell me and tens of millions of people the controller has no awareness of an entire home turning on / off? Impossible . . . We all know the basics - The PLM stores all the links from all the hardware in the home. These same links are known to the controller. The ISY is physically connected to the PLM and has complete command and control of the Insteon network. As I stated many times (IF) people really want to know where the problem is - remove the controller and you will see. End of story . . . Yes Teken, I have read everything in these forums about the all on event. Here is the thread I created about my dead PLM.http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/17734-i-think-my-new-plm-is-dead-please-help/?hl=erick&do=findComment&comment=160506 Edited February 5, 2016 by EricK
larryllix01 Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 Same here. I have ten Insteon MSes and never had an All On or Off. Most of my MSes are direct linked to lights via a scene, and timed off by ISY.
stusviews Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 Same here. I have ten Insteon MSes and never had an All On or Off. Most of my MSes are direct linked to lights via a scene, and timed off by ISY. Only a few, myself included, have experienced the ALL ON phenomenon at all. There is, to date, no affirmation as to the cause.
EricK Posted February 6, 2016 Author Posted February 6, 2016 Only a few, myself included, have experienced the ALL ON phenomenon at all. There is, to date, no affirmation as to the cause.Maybe we are imagining these events. I do think the cause is a signal collision that devices then interpret as an all on command. Since the all on command is real it is obviously the cause and being generated somehow. I suspect that it has to be a combination of specific device addresses including an on command to create a false all on. This is why some people never experience it.
Teken Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 Maybe we are imagining these events. I do think the cause is a signal collision that devices then interpret as an all on command. Since the all on command is real it is obviously the cause and being generated somehow. I suspect that it has to be a combination of specific device addresses including an on command to create a false all on. This is why some people never experience it. That doesn't explain why it doesn't happen all the time . . . It also doesn't explain how it can happen while no one is around or asleep in bed. Keeping in mind there are people who also have no MS in the mix and this also happens. If improper programming is one of the main drivers in this issue. Again, if I was such a crappy programmer one would expect this issue to appear every day, every hour, no? So no . . . To date I have never read of one single person remove the controller and report back what the outcome was, none. I do see lots of band aids and guessing which doesn't lead to a final solution to this problem. One day we are going to read about some random guy in the United States of America who says his house was emptied because the largest door to their home (garage door) was open due to the ALL ON issue. As we continue to read the news article about what happen its followed by him starting the litigation process to make him whole. I am at a complete loss why more effort isn't being applied to this issue from all parties. I challenge anyone who is impacted by this issue today to remove the controller. If this problem never happens again well you know where to focus your time and resources. If on the other hand the issue is still present with out a controller then its safe to say Smartlabs better get their aszz in gear and identify root cause. I can safely state the latter won't be seen . . .
larryllix Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) At this point I have to believe UDI's words that a signal collision is responsible but without complex testing of Insteon signal collision generating equipment this isn't going to happen. SH would be the only ones capable of performing these complex tests as they hold all the technology close to their chests and UDI isn't even allowed to use SH's chip without permission. How could anybody else even know what it does? How could UDI even know what the code running the serial port driver and protocol is? Why would SH even care to do this testing when it isn't their problem? My guess is they all are right but the problem is with such a simple and poor serial port protocol the ISY has some problem with the buffer crashing or overrunning and an ALL ON signal is created for the PLM. It doesn't have to be in the Insteon signal. I could be in the interface to the ISY. Edited February 6, 2016 by larryllix
abartello Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 This is just a guess, but I was an ISY-99 user for many years before I upgraded to the ISY-994i about 3 years ago. From my experience and what I have seen on these forums, this All On/ All Off issue really came about around the time the ISY-994i's were being sold. I had Motion Sensors before that with the ISY-99 and never had a problem. Some people believe the issue is with motion sensors trying to communicate while a wallpad is also trying to communicate at the same time. My Motions Sensors do not directly link to any scene or device, I do that through routines in the ISY. However, I STILL get the occasional All On happening. I have definitely identified that it occurs when a MS detects motion. But that's about it. Not saying that it is the ISY-994i product, but sure seems like it. Tony
stusviews Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 It's difficult to blame the PML as only ISY users have reported the problem. Also, as abartello indicated, the older ISY didn't exhibit an All On. But, there's also a lot more devices now. Still, no solid evidence pointing to a cause, only speculation.
jerlands Posted February 6, 2016 Posted February 6, 2016 This is just a guess, but I was an ISY-99 user for many years before I upgraded to the ISY-994i about 3 years ago. From my experience and what I have seen on these forums, this All On/ All Off issue really came about around the time the ISY-994i's were being sold. I had Motion Sensors before that with the ISY-99 and never had a problem. Some people believe the issue is with motion sensors trying to communicate while a wallpad is also trying to communicate at the same time. My Motions Sensors do not directly link to any scene or device, I do that through routines in the ISY. However, I STILL get the occasional All On happening. I have definitely identified that it occurs when a MS detects motion. But that's about it. Not saying that it is the ISY-994i product, but sure seems like it. Tony I think the 2413s came out in the latter part of 2010 while the 994i came out around the end of 2011 and I don't know the first reported instance of ALL ON but it seems to me to be around mid 2013. If there were a timeline showing PLM versions and etc to ALL On occurrences it might help. Jon...
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