Insteon 2477d wiring - assistance needed

[stusviews]

None of what we've said about measurements involves safety. In fact, what we are recommending is actually dangerous. To wit, take a measurement between the live wire and anything you may be standing on or in or touch. Rather, we're addressing identifying each wire with certainty to minimize, even avoid wiring mishaps.

 

With that knowledge beforehand, the wires get connected and voila, everything works

[Guitartexan01]

I know this is an old thread but I would also advise that if you are going to the trouble of pulling three and four way switches apart, you ought to use colored identifying tape once you have neutral and line identified-white tape on the neutral, black on the line. Normally this is how it should be, but as an electrician I have seen everything including green used as line and all colors as neutral. There is no telling what you might find and the only way to know for certain is to use a volt meter and check. A touch tester can get you killed.

 

 

GT

[MartinColorado]

Hello everyone -- Hope this string is not too stale and the right place to ask, but hoping to find some assistance with getting a pair of 2477d's working on a 3 way.  To cut to the chase, my electrician wired two 3-way switches with lights in the middle of the circuit.  Diagram attached.  For the life of me, I cannot get it to work.  When I get close trying a variety of configurations I think are right, they turn on, but I get erratic switch behavior and flickering between turning ON/OFF or dimming.  Super frustrating.  I have this switches elsewhere in my home, but not 3 way wired like this.  Any help or guidance is appreciated.

 

3waydiag.tiff

Edited September 18, 2016 by MartinColorado

[stusviews]

The wiring between the two fixtures can be done more than one way. Are you sure that there are two 2-wire Romex cables between the two ceiling boxes and not one 3-wire cable? In any case, describe the number and color of the wires ate each switch box and how the are grouped (e.g., one tow wire cable, one 3-wire cable). You can disregard any ground wires.

[larryllix]

First forget the three way with Insteon. It doesn't exist.

 

What you want in the end is

- white neutral to go to each switchlinc White and each bulb white screw.

- black hot to both switchlinc blacks

- one switchlinc Red to feed the lights via Reds or blacks

- other switchlinc red capped off.

 

The logical Or switching is done with Insteon scenes where both switches On/Off control as scene that turns on the loaded (red connection) switchlinc

-

[stusviews]

Larry, that won't work unless the wiring is changed. For example, the last switch in a 3-way configuration has a white wire, but that wire is never a neutral. Black and red can be any of line, load or a traveler.

[larryllix]

Stu.

He is removing 3-way mechanical switches and installing single-contact Insteon switches.

 

The wiring always has to be changed, so I missed your point on that one.

 

He will have to change some connections on the right fixture to make it understandable and probably to code.

[stusviews]

Without knowing the current wiring, there's no way to know which connections to change.

[larryllix]

Without knowing the current wiring, there's no way to know which connections to change.

Post #28 he stated it is as per picture and attached it.

He hasn't answered your Q about 2 x 2c yet though. Keep digging for accuracy of diagram.

[stusviews]

The posted image will work, but it's very unusual to run two 2-wire Romexes instead of one 3-wire Romex.

[MartinColorado]

Thanks All for the fast replies -- I'm not certain if my electrician used 14/2 between the lights, but he provide the diagram as to what he did.  What I have coming into Box 1 is 14/2 with Black/White (Black is Line / White Neutral), leaving going to the lights is 14/3 (wired as per the diagram).  Box 2 just has 14/3 coming into it and connected to a manaul switch like the digram (this one as the white neutral inverted).  Hope the helps.  I can send pictures of both boxes if that give a better visual as what I have going on. thx!

[stusviews]

Ir really matters if it's two 2-wire Romexes or one 3-wire Romex. In any case (two 2's or one 3), the end switch does not have a neutral and there's no way to provide one without changing the connections at one or both ceiling boxes. You will need to remove at least one, but more likely, both fixtures and describe what you find.

[MartinColorado]

It's actually 6 can lights in ceiling where I can't get access to the wiring to see how they are wired.  Can only go from wiring diagram he provided and assume it's exactly that way.  Sounds like I may by out of luck? I hope note. Really would like to use these as intended. 

[stusviews]

The diagram can't be correct if you have 6 lights, as the diagram shows only two. Assume does not work when it comes to electric wiring. An incorrect guess can be as simple as causing the breaker to pop or as bad as burning/melting a wire inside the wall or ceiling.

 

In any case, as I indicated, the end switch with only 3 wires does not have a neutral, so connections must be changed at the fixture(s).

[MartinColorado]

Not sure if this diagram(s) below help, but this is what I believe I have going on.  Essentially 14/2 between lights in a continuous cascade, until the last one where the black joins the original 14/3 that goes back down to the last other switch in the circuit.  I myself have never wired a 3-way this way, but this seems to work no problem with a regular mechanical switch.  Haven't tried a non-smart dimmer, but I assume it would work.  Thanks again for the thinking on this. 

[larryllix]

This can be done by modifying the wiring in the both light switch boxes and the last fixture. The last fixture wiring changes must be done to not violate wiring colour codes badly.

 

If you have potlights they almost always can be unscrewed from their racking mechanism with screws from the inside of the can, pulled down out of the drywall/frame on the wiring and the box lid snapped open.

 

The white neutral would have to be continued by connecting to the last fixture white and the black and red reversed to how they are connected now. then you colours should be correct to the tail end switchlinc.

The entrance switchlinc would need to be arranged to meet standard wiring practice colours with black connected to continue it and red on the switchlinc capped off.

 

If you can get the last can pulled down to access the wiring then I am sure it can be sleuthed from there and made to work, provided the wiring turns out to be as pictured posted.

Edited September 18, 2016 by larryllix

[stusviews]

One last time. Guessing is dangerous. Melted wires are not uncommon when based on assumptions. The new diagram is very different from the first.

[MartinColorado]

Thanks Larry and Stu -  I will try and see if I can get access to the last can, but these are not remodel lights so didn't see anything obvious when i looked up in there for a way to pull them down without damaging drywall. Is it safe to say that if have disconnected one of the blacks to what I believe to be the last can and it is the only light that goes out, I've found the right one?  

 

Another Path:  Turns out I have another line and neutral buried back in my box 2 that is on the same breaker.  It seems to be a splice of some sort.  Could I technically change my setup to a single pole switch by combining Red/Black in Box 2 (capping off the white traveler), wire up Box 1 as Single Pole and power up the Insteon switch in Box 2 using the space Black/White I have in there? Then link the two switches together to be in the same group?  I did a simple test using the mechanical switches and it worked as single pole out of box 1 no problem.  Any issues doing it this way? 

[jtara92101]

If the cans are Halo, they will be fairly easy to drop. If they are not, they might not be. (Ask me how I know...) And I don't know how easy 4" cans would be - I've only done 6" (for an LED conversion of fluorescent ones - had to drop the can to bypass the ballast.) There should be many YouTube videos for this!

 

But you may not need to. Go to an electrical supply, and they might have a screw-in base with pigtails. Get at least a couple of them. (My electrical supply has them.) With the power off (verify with a bulb!) screw in the base with pigtails. Really - for safety - it is best if you cut power to the entire house.

 

Now you can wirenut a long wire to one of the leads, bring the other end of the long wire back to one of your switches, and check for continuity with an ohmmeter. You should be able to eventually figure out your wiring. Of course, then you will not be able to test hidden connections in the can's electrical box. (e.g. if the box is used to make some other wire connections unrelated to the can).

 

I'd imagine electricians use some device to put a signal on the wire that can be easily detected without having to bring a wire to the other test point to check with an ohmmeter. You can probably get a basic one pretty inexpensively. I've used an ohmmeter. (Actually, I use it with a buzzer functionality.)

 

This is called "ringing-out" a circuit. (I suppose because of the buzzer feature on meters.)

 

This will either allow you to figure out your wiring, or drive you to drink. When you do, stop playing around with wires!

[jtara92101]

Look for videos on how to drop the can. You do not remove the entire fixture. You are thinking about it wrong.

 

There are (typically) 3 screws inside the housing, on the sides. Remove these, and then the can part should come free from the rest of the fixture. They will typically be attached to a sort of stiff wire frame, or in any case some kind of attachment points to the overall fixture. At least if they are 6" cans. If they are 4" cans, you will need a VERY short screwdriver! (Or an offset one and a lot of patience.)

 

It will not just fall out easily, it will take a lot of fiddling. Maybe a little drywall repair when you are done.

 

For 6" cans, at least, you can then almost certainly access the little electrical box. The cover is just on the "box" with a springy-tab arrangement. No screwdriver needed.

 

With a screw-base can, the base will typically be on an L-bracket attached to one of those screws. It will probably have a thumbscrew on it.

 

There's another good use of that thumbscrew! I put in LED conversions on my 4" screw-base cans. I didn't have to disassemble these as I did my 6" kitchen fixtures that had the fluorescents. The conversion comes pre-wired to one of those pigtails I mentioned above. (It's how I got the idea! I went to the electrical supply with one of the pigtails from a conversion kit. "Do you have this?" Well, they didn't have it with the orange connector attached, but they had it with just wire pigtails!

 

Anyway, the conversions got mechanical interference from the screw-base, and wouldn't push in all the way. But the socket height in the can is adjustable, and so you can loosen the thumbscrew and push it up a bit.

 

I don't recall if those 4" cans also had one or two additional screw that might be used to drop the can from the fixture.

 

I do think this is probably overkill. Easier to just ring it out with the screw-base pigtails.

Edited September 18, 2016 by jtara92101

[stusviews]

It's important that you describe every wire in both switch boxes, not just those connected to the 3-way switches. Include colors, how they're grouped (e.g., one 3-wire cable, one two wire cable) and which color wire is connected to the black screw on the 3-way switches and which colors are connected to the brass screws. You can disregard any ground wires.

[larryllix]

Just be very careful of the sticking to the ceiling drywall. The ceiling paint wad probably not cured when the ring was compressed into it and will tend to tear the surface paper back.