swbrains Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I recently added a 2477S Switchlinc in my bathroom as a 3-way switch to control another 2477S that was connected to the bathroom light. First, I had a lot of trouble adding the switch as ISY would tell me it couldn't determine the Insteon Engine. I am running the latest firmware and UI versions. After a dozen attempts to add it, it finally added the switchlinc successfully. The "master" switchlinc (controlling the load) worked fine 100% of the time. The new "slave" switchlinc however would always control/respond to the master (turning the light on/off) every time, but in about 50% of the presses on the slave switchlinc, the switch would blink red a few seconds after using it (even though it controlled the other switchlinc properly). It was very inconsistent but it did happen about half the time. The two switchlincs are on different phases but I have a hardwired Insteon bridge/coupler at the service panel. Also, both of the new switchlincs are dual-band and only about 15 feet apart with no walls in between (both in the same bathroom), so I would have expected the RF part of the comm to work even if there was a power-line comm issue. I tried moving the PLM (even though no other devices has comm issues) but the red blinking LED still occurred about 50% of the time. I remembered I had (non-dimming) LED bulbs in the bathroom lights and replaced them with incandescent/halogen bulbs but the problem persisted. There was nothing else on this switch and I couldn't find anything else that might cause an issue. Finally I realized that just "upstream" of the slave switchlinc I had tapped power from an outlet (double gang) that had a combo USB charger and regular power receptacle in it. Just for kicks, I removed that outlet and replaced it with a regular power receptacle. After dozens of test presses, I can't reproduce the red LED issue any more. So, I just wanted to post this here in case anyone else has an issue with a red LED blinking on a switchlinc and you have tried everything else. You may want to see if you have any of these USB charger outlets on the circuit as they may cause comm problems. I Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Not sure of the brand (model) you had in place but I've had great success with USB outlets by Cooper, Leviton, and a Costco house brand. Can you offer more details of the make and model along with a photo as I am sure this will help other down the line. It should be noted many times the electronics age and when they do various noise issues are the results. It should also be noted many of these devices are not designed or built with very much surge protection and thus a good working device at one point is no longer operating as expected after a surge / sag event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swbrains Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 The USB charging outlet in question is a Leviton purchased at Home Depot less than 3 years ago. I can't see the model number on it, but here are some photos of it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3sbzbu6vrn6a07e/usb1.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/anczyl3wujro8gy/usb2.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/pbgs9766b6wlzkj/usb3.jpg?dl=0 FWIW, the device was still working and I have a whole-house surge protector on my inside service panel: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v2d3lwvyjxebj8j/screencapture_000134.png?dl=0 Although it's entirely possible that it was failing in some other way that caused noise on the line but still allowed it to function. Tested the switchlinc a bunch more times today and it seems to be working with no red blinking LED so I do think this was the likely culprit. As an aside, I did learn while troubleshooting that one of my 2443 access points was no longer working. But since I have a coupler/bridge hardwired at the service panel and most of my devices are dual band (including the two new bathroom switches), I don't think it matters much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 The only valid test ti to reconnect the receptacle in the same location and observe if the problem recurs. BTW, how did you determine that the Access Point is defective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwester Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I had one of those as well - it too was noisy, and got replaced by a similar Cooper device. Later I discovered that the wireless charging pad I had plugged into that outlet was generating all sorts of noise as well -- so now I'm wondering if the original device was as bad as I thought, or if I might have saved myself a lot of effort by replacing the charging pad in the first place. Tracking the noise-culprits down is a tough task, I've found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 If the 2443 Access Point was a hardware revision above 2.0. It has the same base main board in it as 2413S/U PLM with the same capacitor issues. I had to repair both of mine when their LEDs got dim and the started acting strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 The USB charging outlet in question is a Leviton purchased at Home Depot less than 3 years ago. I can't see the model number on it, but here are some photos of it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3sbzbu6vrn6a07e/usb1.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/anczyl3wujro8gy/usb2.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/pbgs9766b6wlzkj/usb3.jpg?dl=0 FWIW, the device was still working and I have a whole-house surge protector on my inside service panel: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v2d3lwvyjxebj8j/screencapture_000134.png?dl=0 Although it's entirely possible that it was failing in some other way that caused noise on the line but still allowed it to function. Tested the switchlinc a bunch more times today and it seems to be working with no red blinking LED so I do think this was the likely culprit. As an aside, I did learn while troubleshooting that one of my 2443 access points was no longer working. But since I have a coupler/bridge hardwired at the service panel and most of my devices are dual band (including the two new bathroom switches), I don't think it matters much. From personal experience over the years its really a crap shoot in how electronic devices will perform when presented with out of band line voltage. Keeping in mind many electronics include some kind of filtering system to ensure they meet RFI / EMI noise emissions. Because of this most if not all of them will be either a noise maker or signal sucker. Its also no great surprise the days of engineering a product to last 10 plus years is long gone. One can only hope the engineers who designed the product was allowed to use components which have long service life and consistent tolerances. Keeping in mind the market is driven by price point because we as the consumers have pushed the makers to sell items at sub par prices which is near impossible to do when sales volume isn't there to support it. Having said all of the above, things to consider is that many electronics either have tight power regulations vs not. Some also (smart) engineers have designed their wares to operate in a wide range of voltages. Anytime you see on the specs of a device that can support 80 - 150 VAC RMS indicates this product was designed with some common sense and ultimately may offer longer service life. As wide voltage range does not directly relate to long term use or reliability because a company could have used the cheapest parts known to man like the famous capacitors used in the 2413S PLM. As I stressed above a wide voltage (operating range) is paramount because despite popular belief more electronics are damaged from a voltage sag (brown out) vs a voltage rise (surge / spike). It should be noted a surge vs a spike is not the same even though many people use the phrase interchangeably. Meaning if the line voltage rises and stays above 130 VAC things will start to go poof. Most if not all electronics can sustain short duration's of line voltage to 130 VAC with out harm. When you exceed 130 to 150 VAC the magic smoke will quickly follow . . . Every home unless you're an Amish home owner will see micro surges in the home. No amount of type 1 / type 2 SPD's at the service entrance or service panel will lesson in band surges, none. The most common micro surges come from HVAC, Sumps, Fridge, Freezers, almost anything that has a motor / compressor. This is where Type 3 (point of use) SPD's, line conditioners, voltage regulators, UPS, and line isolators come into play. Using a layered approach of Type 1, 2, 3 in a residential home will offer the most protection. Lastly, most if not all SPD's on the market today must meet the UL 1449 3rd Edition / IEEE 587. Keeping in mind just because it meets a set criteria doesn't mean it will offer protection in all use cases as stated above regarding micro surges, spikes, etc. As none of them will offer any protection against the most common threat which is a voltage sag / lull. Even those who use UPS devices rarely if ever read the fine print as to what voltage the device will begin to intercede. Finally, normally a very high joules rating is preferable which indicates how much energy the device can absorb before failing. While clamping and let through rating play even a bigger role in protecting your electronics. Both values should be as low as possible and the most common in consumer grade protection is 140 VAC RMS clamping and 330 let through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swbrains Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 The only valid test ti to reconnect the receptacle in the same location and observe if the problem recurs. BTW, how did you determine that the Access Point is defective? I had two that I was checking. On one, I could plug it in and do a 4-tap test and it would blink and beep. The other did absolutely nothing. The LED would not light at all or respond to the 4-tap test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swbrains Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 The most common micro surges come from HVAC, Sumps, Fridge, Freezers, almost anything that has a motor / compressor. This is where Type 3 (point of use) SPD's, line conditioners, voltage regulators, UPS, and line isolators come into play. Understood. Of course, aren't these the first devices we're told to remove from the circuit when troubleshooting Insteon communication issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Understood. Of course, aren't these the first devices we're told to remove from the circuit when troubleshooting Insteon communication issues? Very true when talking about Insteon communications issues. My follow up reply was more geared toward addressing SPD's and how common electronics can be impacted by fluctuation in line voltages. It was also to address how most electronics have built in filtering for obvious reasons. Another key consideration is if we ignore just for the moment the device is not a noise maker and simply a signal sucker. This is why its important to know where the (signal sucker) device is in relations to being at what point in the branch circuit. When I designed my home I paid extra to ensure many circuits were dedicated or had the ability to incorporate some type of SPD in the line. Whether it be at the head of the branch, middle, or at the very end of the circuit. Having done that allowed me to know rooms, floors, zones, could not be impacted by noise makers / signal suckers. Worse case assuming I was completely wrong having isolated circuits limited those noise makers / signal suckers to those areas and no other. Unfortunately very few people are in that kind of position when speaking about their homes etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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