2486DWH6 Cannot Determine Insteon Engine

[Brian H]

Maybe I am not understand the ACK messages? Maybe they don't come from the device in question, but from something else?

The ACK is from the PLM meaning the command it was told to process. Was a valid command and processed correctly.

In your first log dump. The ISY controller tried three times to contact the device and got no response back.

In the second dump. You got some responses back from the device in question.

 

You will also see an ACK on the end of a received message from an Insteon device. To indicate the end of a message processed.

[jtara92101]

It looks like the devices in question aren't communicating at all. Now suspecting the devices, rather than the ISY, PLM, or noise. I haven't been successful linking these devices manually, let alone to or through the ISY/PLM. I wasn't able to link either SwitchLinc 2476D 5.15 or KeypadLinc 2486DWH6 v5.3 (strange first-generation dual-band) to an old LampLinc V2. But no problem at all linking (manually, or with ISY) one of my two working KeypadLincs (2334-2 v.45) to the Lamplinc.

 

So looks like I have a large number of communication-dead devices, that serve only as dimmers now. The only thing I can program on them (manually) is the on level. (I suppose I can configure switches to toggle/non-toggle, etc.) Can't imagine what caused this, but I did have one dual-band LampLinc fail after installation at the new place (replaced by another). That should be under warranty.

 

Very strange. Really old, powerline-only devices work. Really new dual-band devices work. RF-only devices work. What doesn't work are moderately-old devices, single or dual-band. Heck, I can't even link the SwitchLinc to the KeypadLinc in the same box!

 

It's getting a pain to test these, because I have so many SwitchLincs and KeypadLincs. I'll have to find a zip-cord and use it for further testing, because it's a pain constantly switching-out devices in boxes.

 

Will see if I can get a PLM replacement (I have v1. under warranty, and if not will bite the bullet and buy yet another PLM. I could upgrade the capacitors, but that won't get me new firmware, and understand the new one has better capacitors.

 

Really disgusted with Insteon. Not throwing good money after bad, new devices will be Z-Wave. It's too bad that I don't really NEED any new devices, as I have plenty of left-overs from my move from a much larger place. Just installed the Z-wave module I had sitting around. (couldn't find it after the move!) It was intended for an LED RGBW controller, but now will probably be used for switches and dimmers.

[Techman]

I would focus on line noise and poor communications.

 

What's is the info printed on your PLM. That will show the date it was manufactured and the firmware version.

 

Is you PLM plugged directly into an outlet and not a power strip or a ups?

 

Do you have any UPS, chargers, TV's etc. plugged into any outlets close to the PLM?  they can all create power line noise and interfere with the Insteon signals.

 

Take a look at this troubleshooting link   http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON:_Troubleshooting_Communications_Errors

[jtara92101]

I would focus on line noise and poor communications.

 

What's is the info printed on your PLM. That will show the date it was manufactured and the firmware version.

 

Is you PLM plugged directly into an outlet and not a power strip or a ups?

 

Do you have any UPS, chargers, TV's etc. plugged into any outlets close to the PLM?  they can all create power line noise and interfere with the Insteon signals.

 

Take a look at this troubleshooting link   http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON:_Troubleshooting_Communications_Errors

 

Info on PLM is 1.B, date code is 1317. So out of warranty, and I guess buying yet another of these.

 

Power-line noise should not be an issue with dual-band devices! The 2486DWH6s are dual-band. It is confusing as heck because for a while they didn't change the model number.

 

Problem has nothing to do with the PLM, as I still can't link the devices in question manually, even in the same box, and even with the PLM unplugged.

 

I think it is simply device failure. Giving up on Insteon, and new devices will be Z-Wave, and won't be buying from Smarthome. Their tech support (I guess you call Insteon tech support and get SmartHome...) is over an hour wait. Heck, it's even an hour wait if you have sales questions, only the call-back option on sales is useful.

 

They were nice enough to give me store credit on two dimmer outlets that I had never installed, and wrong color for the new place. (Wisely going with WHITE now! I have lots of white change-over kits, but dimmer outlets don't have a changeover kit.) So, at least I'll have a couple more dual-band devices.

 

Dead LampLinc dual-band (that died after installation at the new place) is rev 1.33 from 2010 (3210) so out of warranty.

 

Something here is eating Insteon devices.  Now wish I hadn't donated that old Tektronix scope with only one channel working when I moved!

[jtara92101]

Now I'm on to something! It does seem to be an issue with specific devices that simply no longer work.

 

My theory about old and new and in-the-middle is shot, though, because I did find one good dual-band switchlinc from 2010, v5.3. I had assumed these were all bad, but no.

 

I made a setup where I can quickly test and link devices on a production line. That is, a zip cord and wire nuts. I've also set out to re-tin damaged leads while I am at it.

 

Since I'm not sure that I deleted everything properly before the move, my procedure is this:

 

- wire-nut the device to the zip cord (I've marked neutral)

- plug in

- start linking

- push set button

- no response? goes in the dead pile. Next!

- response - go ahead and link device, replace all links

- then delete device from ISY (fully re-initialized, ready to install)

 

I guess I ought to reset button setups on KPLs, forgot about that.

 

Once I'm done, will let the group know how many are in the good/bad piles.

 

Have to admit, I just tossed all of the devices into a cardboard box before the move, but as power-line devices, didn't think they were sensitive enough to need wrapping in anti-static bubble, etc.

 

I'm wondering if old leftover links were causing a flood of messages?

 

The 2010 dual-bands make a nasty very low frequency buzzing for a bit when you first plug them in.

[jtara92101]

All the failures so far are 5.x series. Both SwitchLinc 5.15 and KeypadLinc 5.3 I wonder if they had a reliability issue?

 

The KeypadLincs seem more susceptible to failure than the Switchlincs. Out of 3 5.3 KPLs, only one is able to link.

 

I have 3 good and 3 bad SL 5.15.

 

Anything older or newer seems fine, though I haven't gone through all of the 3.3 and 1.8 SLs yet.

 

I'd ask tech support, but they are nowhere to be found. Maybe they will call me next week...

[jtara92101]

The tally:

 

KeypadLinc:

 

v5.3 1 good, 2 bad

v1.8 6 good

 

SwitchLinc:

 

2334-2 v.45 2 good ("new" dual-band)

2486D v5.15 4 good, 3 bad (these are the "old" dual-band before model # change)

2486D v4.0 1 good (reports as 3.5!)

2486D v3.3 3 good, 4 bad (reports as v.38)

 

LampLinc Dimmer Dual-Band 2476D2 v1.33 2 good, 1 bad

Bad one went bad a few days after installation at new location

 

2476S SwitchLinc V2 Relay v2.5 2 good

 

I wonder if EEROM/flash failure? I had a lot of large scenes (e.g. every switch in an "all off" and also in "other areas" scenes. (Show status of lights in other parts of house, shut them off by pressing.)

 

Many of the failures were never installed at new location, so doubt it is responsible, though that's where I've done the testing.

[Techman]

The tally:

 

KeypadLinc:

 

v5.3 1 good, 2 bad

v1.8 6 good

 

SwitchLinc:

 

2334-2 v.45 2 good ("new" dual-band)

2486D v5.15 4 good, 3 bad (these are the "old" dual-band before model # change)

2486D v4.0 1 good (reports as 3.5!)

2486D v3.3 3 good, 4 bad

 

I wonder if EEROM/flash failure? I had a lot of large scenes (e.g. every switch in an "all off" and also in "other areas" scenes. (Show status of lights in other parts of house, shut them off by pressing.)

 

Your PLM was manufactured in March, 2013. The PLM's built around that date had issues with bad capacitors which caused the PLM to fail after about two years. They first become intermittent then just stopped working.

 

If you want to but together a solid reliable system then it's probably best to replace your PLM with the current version which has both hardware and firmware updates.

 

The newer device modules also have hardware and firmware improvements and seem to be more reliable.  If you're a Costco member you can buy some of the modules from Costco online at good prices and they are shipped directly from Smarthome.

 

You may want to try doing a factory reset on the devices you're having problems with as the flash memory can get corrupted by either power failures or power line surges.

[jtara92101]

OK, I give up. Set-up a SwitchLinc on the zip-cord set-up, check!

 

Moved it to the kitchen, still works, check!

 

A few minutes later - dead!

 

Would like to see if they will replace the PLM under warranty, but they are unreachable. I have an email in, doubt I will hear from them today.

 

Costco has 4-packs of leak sensors and switches and motion detectors, and that's about it. Comes to $35/switch.

 

Why would I buy anything more from a company with such horrible customer support?

 

Another one died after a successful install. The 5.x series are toxic.

[jtara92101]

So one SwitchLinc died after installation.

 

The next one I tried has a bad "off" button.

[jtara92101]

All 5.xs (whether switchlinc or keypadlinc) seem trouble.

 

I thought I'd use one of the "working" 5.3 KPLs to get more RF connectivity. But once installed in the box links stopped working.

 

Putting a 3.3 powerline-only model in.

 

Yup - finally have my kitchen setup using really old, powerline-only models.

 

Anything with a 5.x in it, stick a fork in it!

 

SwitchLinc 1.8

KPL 3.3

 

Oldies but goodies.

 

Not saying it CAN'T be the PLM, and will replace it in any case. (After begging for warranty, IF they ever call me back). Maybe there is some issue when an RF device is repeating along the way. Thought adding more wireless would be MORE reliable, instead it is the opposite.

[Techman]

All 5.xs (whether switchlinc or keypadlinc) seem trouble.

 

I thought I'd use one of the "working" 5.3 KPLs to get more RF connectivity. But once installed in the box links stopped working.

 

Putting a 3.3 powerline-only model in.

 

Yup - finally have my kitchen setup using really old, powerline-only models.

 

Anything with a 5.x in it, stick a fork in it!

 

SwitchLinc 1.8

KPL 3.3

 

Oldies but goodies.

 

Not saying it CAN'T be the PLM, and will replace it in any case. (After begging for warranty, IF they ever call me back). Maybe there is some issue when an RF device is repeating along the way. Thought adding more wireless would be MORE reliable, instead it is the opposite.

Smarthome is staffed until 5 pm PDT so you should try another phone call.

 

it's possible that some of your old devices are flaky.  Also the technology on the older devices is I1, the newer are I2CS

 

take a look at this thread  http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/11877-do-old-i1-modules-mess-up-i2cs-communications/

[jtara92101]

Smarthome is staffed until 5 pm PDT so you should try another phone call.

 

They are pretty-much non-responsive these days, even if you want to buy something! Calling them just gets you the "projected wait time is 1 hour, 30 minutes".

 

it's possible that some of your old devices are flaky.  Also the technology on the older devices is I1, the newer are I2CS

 

Is there a chart of which devices are I1, I2, and I2CS? And what is I2CS (vs I2?)

 

I'm thinking the issue is when certain "in the middle" (version-wise) devices repeat, and particular if they repeat using RF.

 

Most of my 5.x devices don't link, and that's the bulk of the problem. I probably have a small number of random failures too.

 

Edit: OK, I did queries on my newest devices and looked at event log. PLM always starts with I1, then switches if device reports newer, right?

 

So, entrance keypad is very new, switches-over to I2CS.

 

Office keypad ditto. These are both 2334-2, V.45.

 

Is there a guide to the event messages? Except for keypads, nothing I see refers to I2 or I2CS. I guess I will see INST-ERX if I2 device, right? I see that for the new keypads.

 

Not willing to make a further investment in Insteon to bring everything up to date. My brand-new devices work, and my oldies-but-goodies work. Maybe some of the new ones are being forced into I1, I dunno.

[Techman]

They are pretty-much non-responsive these days, even if you want to buy something! Calling them just gets you the "projected wait time is 1 hour, 30 minutes".

 

Is there a chart of which devices are I1, I2, and I2CS? And what is I2CS (vs I2?)

 

I'm thinking the issue is when certain "in the middle" (version-wise) devices repeat, and particular if they repeat using RF.

 

Most of my 5.x devices don't link, and that's the bulk of the problem. I probably have a small number of random failures too.

 

Edit: OK, I did queries on my newest devices and looked at event log. PLM always starts with I1, then switches if device reports newer, right?

 

So, entrance keypad is very new, switches-over to I2CS.

 

Office keypad ditto. These are both 2334-2, V.45.

 

Is there a guide to the event messages? Except for keypads, nothing I see refers to I2 or I2CS. I guess I will see INST-ERX if I2 device, right? I see that for the new keypads.

 

Not willing to make a further investment in Insteon to bring everything up to date. My brand-new devices work, and my oldies-but-goodies work. Maybe some of the new ones are being forced into I1, I dunno.

 

Take a look at this site  http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/i2cs.html

 

here's a list but not sure if it's up to date  http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/Insteon_device_list.htm

 

The early Insteon devices did have some issues. My system is all I2CS and is very reliable. The more I2CS devices you have the more reliable your Insteon network becomes. 

 

It's also important to filter devices such as some TV's, power supplies, UPS, etc as they can interfere with the Insteon signals by either creating power line noise or absorbing the Insteon signal.

 

What's the date code on your older devices, it will be a 4 number string printed on the modules.

 

 

Here's A list of Insteon commands  http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/commands.htm

 

and another list http://cache.insteon.com/pdf/INSTEON_Command_Tables_20070925a.pdf

[jtara92101]

I either unplugged or airgapped all of my I1 devices. Or, at least, what I think are I1 devices.

 

Now I see I get I2CS replies from both my office and entrance keypads. (Office is closest to PLM.) Actually, I get from both with I1 devices plugged, but I get the I2CS reply from entrance late.

 

It seems micro module is I1 only? I never get an I2C or I2 response from that.

 

Dead devices seem permanently dead. By "dead", I mean "will not link, even manually". All of the 5.3 KPLs seem dead now.

 

I had a few that seemed to work sometime and sometime not. Just tried a 5.15 SL and it linked. Date code is 1024. It's one of my NEWER devices, LOL. When I query, I do not get ERX, only SRX. So, they "work", but as soon as I add to system, they make other devices fail. So back to using only the newest and oldest devices. There's definitely some nasty incompatible hole in the middle.

[stusviews]

Date code 1024 indicates a device from the 24th week of 2010, so it can't be a newer device!

[jtara92101]

Date code 1024 indicates a device from the 24th week of 2010, so it can't be a newer device!

 

For me, that's newer!

 

I was an early adopter. Early Insteon adopters have paid a steep price. Over, and over, and over...

 

I have the old boxy LampLincs that are at least 15 years old, and THEY still work!

[Techman]

For me, that's newer!

 

I was an early adopter. Early Insteon adopters have paid a steep price. Over, and over, and over...

 

I have the old boxy LampLincs that are at least 15 years old, and THEY still work!

 

If you're serious about having a stable Insteon network then you'll need to dump the old modules.

[stusviews]

Remove, but don't disconnect a SwitchLinc that you have no difficulty with. Connect a problem SwitchLinc in parallel with the first. Cap the load. Can you add the problem SwitchLinc?

 

If not, and you're willing to take a risk, delete the working SwitchLinc from the ISY, then attempt to add both back using Start Linking (swirling arrows). What's the result?

 

Oh, the risk is that, if it's the PLM, then you may not be able to add either device.

[jtara92101]

Removed and disconnected all v.515 KeypadLincs and all V.53 Switchlincs. Problem solved!

 

I don't think PLM, since they can't even link manually. They seem to have lost all functionality related to linking.

 

I will replace the PLM in any case, since it's a 1.B.

 

Since these are all from 2010, doubt Insteon will replace them, if I can ever get ahold of them (still waiting for call-back from Friday...) maybe I can get some discount.

 

The body count is about a dozen.

 

Everything both newer and older works fine, save for an ancient power-dead Access Point, and an ancient LampLinc with memory failure.

[Brian H]

If the Access Point is a hardware version 2.0 or above.

It is built on the base 2413 PLM board. That has the capacitor failures.

I rebuilt two of mine. With the same parts used in the PLM repair thread.

[jtara92101]

If the Access Point is a hardware version 2.0 or above.

It is built on the base 2413 PLM board. That has the capacitor failures.

I rebuilt two of mine. With the same parts used in the PLM repair thread.

 

AP is 1.0. From 1997, if I understand the date code correctly! 

 

All of the markings: 2443 0801 (tag on left). v1.0 4997 (tag on right).

 

One of the two still works! (But not in the system.)

 

I think they've done their jobs, and deserve a pleasant retirement, and have no need, as the phases are bridged by my dual-band devices.

[Brian H]

Real old and built on the older power transformer style main board.

[stusviews]

If your AP has an external black antenna, then using only one is useless. That's because the frequency it used is different from the one used for dual-band devices. As such, it communicated only with another AP with the black external antenna.

[jtara92101]

If your AP has an external black antenna, then using only one is useless. That's because the frequency it used is different from the one used for dual-band devices. As such, it communicated only with another AP with the black external antenna.

 

No external black antenna.

 

Insteon support just gave me conflicting information on PLMs, BTW. They state no capacitor changes in 2.x PLM, that happened at 1.B. Only hardware change with 2.x is addition of a zener diode to add some surge protection, and "no significant" firmware change. They suggested I have no good reason to replace my PLM.

 

YMMV. (Your mileage may vary, depending on who you talk to at Insteon...)

 

Insteon support suggested I could sell my old devices on eBay and use the money to buy new ones, LOL! I said I wasn't comfortable with selling dead devices on eBay. They did make a suggestion to test in a 2-phase environment with no Insteon, and I might do that at a friend's house if I get the time. If I can find my old ISY99. (Don't really want to reset/test/restore my ISY994i, and would want to watch events rather than just attempt manual linkage.

 

One outside possibility is the dire warning you get in the ISY UI about setting button groupings. I did do this in the past - long before the dire warnings appeared. I discussed this with Insteon tech, but he was unfamiliar. I read him the language, and we both interpreted as "the scene" might get "permanently" damaged, but once scene deleted should be no harm. But anybody's guess what that language really means.

 

Did I fry my device configurations in 2010 by grouping buttons (e.g. "mutually exclusive") through the ISY button grouping? Or (more logical) I just fried them by factory-resetting devices that previously had button groupings? Now I'm thinking that perhaps the KeyPadLincs were ones with grouped buttons, and the SwitchLincs were loads controlled by those buttons.

 

I had many KPLs that had scenes with various combination of lights in a room on A,B,C so ABC were grouped, and almost certainly did that before the dire warnings appeared in ISY software. (e.g. "eat", "cook", "clean").

 

I had custom-etched buttons, and most haven't been changed-back yet (of the dead ones) so easy to check...

 

Oh, darn, I already switched-out the faces on the KPLs.  But, yes, all the non-linking SLs are ones that would have been controlled by a "grouped" button on a KPL... (Vanity, Shower, Edge (kitchen), Overhead (kitchen) etc. And I'm sure I would have put the "newer" (e.g. 2010) devices in the kitchen and bathrooms, all of which had the usage-based scenes.

 

Just what happens when one ignores the dire warning (or did so before making groupings was no longer recommended)? Could this cause the devices to be non-linkable? And any way to restore them? A long shot, though, as my problem with linking is not with the ABCD buttons, but the main on/off. (Or just getting the PLM to see the device.)