Problems cross linking

[eyost]

Hi all,

 

I am having problems with successfully cross linking two smartlinc switches.

 

The two switches are in the kitchen and replaced an existing three way circuit. I added the two switches to the ISY by using the Link Management/Start Linking function. Both show up in the ISY and the one that is connected to the hot and light will turn on and off the light. The other switch will not which makes sense as it has not been cross linked yet.

 

I then created a scene and added both devices as controllers to the scene but the only that will control the light is the one connected to the hot/light. In addition, when I try to turn the scene on or off from the ISY nothing happens. If, however I only have the switch added to the scene that is connected to the hot and light I can turn the light on and off through the scene.

 

What am I missing here?

 

Thanks for any help.

Ed

[stusviews]

Sounds like a wiring error. You mention that one switch is connected to the hot and light. That switch (primary( probably has a neutral, too. But the other switch (secondary) also requires a hot and neutral. Be aware that in virtually all 3-way configurations at least one white wire is not a neutral, black is not line and red is not load.

 

Describe the wiring in each switch box. You can disregard any ground wires.

[G W]

Hi all,

 

I am having problems with successfully cross linking two smartlinc switches.

 

The two switches are in the kitchen and replaced an existing three way circuit. I added the two switches to the ISY by using the Link Management/Start Linking function. Both show up in the ISY and the one that is connected to the hot and light will turn on and off the light. The other switch will not which makes sense as it has not been cross linked yet.

 

I then created a scene and added both devices as controllers to the scene but the only that will control the light is the one connected to the hot/light. In addition, when I try to turn the scene on or off from the ISY nothing happens. If, however I only have the switch added to the scene that is connected to the hot and light I can turn the light on and off through the scene.

 

What am I missing here?

 

Thanks for any help.

Ed

Do both switches light up in the off position?

 

 

Did you use the RED wire on both switches?

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Edited July 23, 2016 by GaryFunk

[jtara92101]

To make a "three way" with Insteon, you should NOT use the traveler wire. Insteon will make a "virtual" 3-way.

 

Just cap the (normally red) traveler wire on both ends. One box will have a black going to the load. Wire the dimmer in that box to the load. The dimmer in the other box will be unused - just cap the black wire from the dimmer. The dimmer in the "remote" box is just acting as an Insteon controller.

 

You can, of course, extend this to "n-way", without needing multiple (or any) travelers. It's really handy for making a 3-way where there wasn't one!

 

Similar deal if you want to control an outlet (with either a relay outlet or the nifty dimmer outlets) and you already have hard-wiring for an outlet switch. Usually, the switch will be wired to the bottom outlet of the duplex nearest the switch. This isn't always the one you want to switch! I prefer to leave the outlet split-wired in this case, and send hot on the traveler, so that if you move and take your Insteon with you, it is easy to restore - instead of hunting around the room examining outlet wiring to figure out which one was originally switched (but it's the one closest to the switch, trust me, because builders are cheap...) just switch the (typically red or black) traveler back from hot to the mechanical switch leg and you're back to conventional wiring.

Edited July 24, 2016 by jtara92101

[stusviews]

Just cap the (normally red) traveler wire on both ends. One box will have a black going to the load. Wire the dimmer in that box to the load. The dimmer in the other box will be unused - just cap the black wire from the dimmer. The dimmer in the "remote" box is just acting as an Insteon controller.

 

Not so. Both dimmers are used, but only one is connected to the load. Both the Insteon primary (connected to the load) and Insteon secondary switches require that the black wire (line) be connected as well as a neutral wire.

 

Similar deal if you want to control an outlet (with either a relay outlet or the nifty dimmer outlets) and you already have hard-wiring for an outlet switch. Usually, the switch will be wired to the bottom outlet of the duplex nearest the switch. This isn't always the one you want to switch! I prefer to leave the outlet split-wired in this case, and send hot on the traveler, so that if you move and take your Insteon with you, it is easy to restore - instead of hunting around the room examining outlet wiring to figure out which one was originally switched (but it's the one closest to the switch, trust me, because builders are cheap...) just switch the (typically red or black) traveler back from hot to the mechanical switch leg and you're back to conventional wiring.

 

Switched (or unswitched) outlets never have any traveler wires, ever. Only multi-way switch configurations do.

[jtara92101]

Not so. Both dimmers are used, but only one is connected to the load. Both the Insteon primary (connected to the load) and Insteon secondary switches require that the black wire (line) be connected as well as a neutral wire.

 

 

So!

 

Maybe semantics...

 

The dimmer portion of the remote Switchlinc is not used! Same thing as "only one is connected to the load". 

 

It's better not to call Insteon devices "dimmers". It's confusing when they don't dim anything. They are "devices", harumppph!

 

The traveller wire is not used. Cap it at both ends. The traveller is normally red.

 

Insteon secondary switches require that the black wire (line) be connected as well as a neutral wire.

 

 

Yes.

 

Load wires are often black, as well! They might be red, they might be black. Every Insteon device (well, MOST every... there are some special ones...) needs to have a neutral and line. Make sure the black wire from the Insteon device is wired to hot/line (always black).

 

Switched (or unswitched) outlets never have any traveler wires, ever.

 

 

I guess I improperly called it a "traveler". OK, so it's a "load". Depending on the particular wiring, the load wire going to the outlet might be black or red. If line/load are being sent to the outlet box from the switch box, the load will be normally be red. (as typically a 4-wire cable, hot/neutral/ground/load). Could be black, though! Depends on the cabling, sometimes two loads are put in one cable if the loads are nearby each other.

Edited July 24, 2016 by jtara92101

[stusviews]

Using incorrect terminology is not a semantical error. It's simply incorrect and can lead to wiring errors. An Insteon dimmer is a dimmer, even if the load is not connected to anything. Insteon dimmers use TRIACs and are silent. Insteon On/Off devices use relays that click when turned on--even without a load connected.

 

 

The traveller wire is not used. Cap it at both ends. The traveller is normally red.

 

 

Every 3-way configuration has exactly two travelers. Each of those travelers can be any of black, red or white. One traveler is usually used to provide a neutral at the 3-way switch box that doesn't have one. The second traveler is capped. On occasion, neither 3-way switch box will have a neutral, but each switch box will have a connected white wire (and red and black).

 

 

Make sure the black wire from the Insteon device is wired to hot/line (always black).

 

 

The line wire at a switch can be white, even in a 3-way configuration (i.e., 2-wire cable between the switch box and fixture box).

 

If someone is not intrinsically familiar with electrical wiring, most especially multi-way configurations, then it's best to describe the wiring at each box ans seek help

[larryllix]

In the end Insteon does not have three-way or multi-way switches.

 

Insteon switches/dimmers are just logically ORed to the each other to control common lights. People call this 3-way or multi-way (for more than 1 switch)

 

The wiring needs to be analysed to accomplish this from a previously 3-way wired set of switches as the colours can be confusing for even electricians at times.

 

Without a complete picture we are all just guessing based on what is "usual" and you can sacrifice an Insteon device or two doing it off a guess. At worse cause a fire or electrocute yourself or one of your loved ones.

Edited July 25, 2016 by larryllix

[eyost]

Thanks all for the information. It's odd as it was working previously but I had to replace one of the switches because the paddle stopped working. I replaced it exactly as before and was able to cross link it but now when I manually cross link it the lights flash when I turn it on from the remote switch. I am going to pull the switches and get a layout of the wiring.

[eyost]

Sounds like a wiring error. You mention that one switch is connected to the hot and light. That switch (primary( probably has a neutral, too. But the other switch (secondary) also requires a hot and neutral. Be aware that in virtually all 3-way configurations at least one white wire is not a neutral, black is not line and red is not load.

 

Describe the wiring in each switch box. You can disregard any ground wires.

 

 

Stu,

 

I checked the outlets. In the box that where the line tested hot I have a gang of white wires nutted together, a red wire, and an additional black wire.

 

Box 1

Black Wire - tests hot

Black Wire

Red Wire

Three white wires nutted together

 

Box 2

For the other box I have a two black, red, and a gang of white wires nutted together. None tests hot.

 

My understanding is for Box 1, the line wire from the switch should be connected to both of the black wires and the switch white wire connected to the gang of white wires and the switch's red wire should be capped off. 

 

Then for box 2, the switch's red wire should be connected to the black wire and the switch's black wire should be connected to the other black wire with the switch's white wire connected to the gang of neutrals.

 

When I started this way back I removed both switches and tested the wires in both boxes to see which one tested hot. That wire was in box 1; the other box had no wires that tested hot.

 

I hope I explained this well.

Ed

[eyost]

Do both switches light up in the off position?

 

 

Did you use the RED wire on both switches?

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

 

 

No, I only used in the box that did not have the line that tested hot.

[stusviews]

Cables are grouped in bundles of black and white or black red and white. Describe each bundle.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[eyost]

Cables are grouped in bundles of black and white or black red and white. Describe each bundle.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Box 1 has a red, black, and white together and Box 2 has black and white.

[stusviews]

Where is it other end of the 3-wire cable that terminates at box 1? Was that originally a 3-way switch? If box 2 has only black and white, then it was not originally a 3-way switch. If there is only black and white, then white is line and black is load. How are you powering the Inseon device in box 2?

 

Something is missing from your description.

[G W]

Electricians do funny things at times. I just changed out a three-way switch for an outlet that the white in a 14-3 was wrapped in black tape and used as a load.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[stusviews]

That's in accordance with the code. Virtually every 3-way configuration that's wired with Romex has at least one white wire that's not a neutral. The code requires that it be marked as such, although that's not always done.

 

I also hear quite often that the electrician used non-standard wiring in a 3-way configuration. Not so. Although there are many ways to route the cables and the power can enter any on of the three boxes involved (fixture box, 2 switch boxes), there is one and only one correct way to connect those wires.

 

line---3-way switch===travelers===3-way switch---load

[G W]

The nice thing about Insteon is it simplifies the wiring. I have capped off over a dozen red wires.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk