New Build question

[Envirogreen]

Hi,

 

I'm a long term user of ISY with ELK, Insteon and zwave...and I love it.

 

I'm now building a new house and I'm looking for anything I should change.

 

The first question is on the ISY - this forum has been a wealth of information and help over the years - better than most other forums (especially with people from the company participating directly and very actively).

 

That said, over the last several months activity on the forum has really slowed down (at least thas my impression) t'd that has me question if I should look for an alternative.  I know there has been a lot of work on version 5.x and polygots, and i like the direction.  That said, I'm concerned that this has been a more difficult/costly path than was anticipated and I'm wondering if the company has the legs to get these out the door (and if so how soon...that is a question of risk).

 

I would really appreciate people's thoughts opinions.

 

Cheers

[paulbates]

That said, over the last several months activity on the forum has really slowed down (at least thas my impression) t'd that has me question if I should look for an alternative.  I know there has been a lot of work on version 5.x and polygots, and i like the direction.  That said, I'm concerned that this has been a more difficult/costly path than was anticipated and I'm wondering if the company has the legs to get these out the door (and if so how soon...that is a question of risk).

 

I would really appreciate people's thoughts opinions.

 

Hi

 

Its less about viability and more about what's important to you. My take is that UDI does not budge on quality, versions take whatever they take to get right, given the price point. 

 

FWIW, I was a 10 year user of all 3 versions of HomeSeer and switched fully to the ISY 2 years ago, for the positive reasons of the product, this forum and last but not least, UDIs direct involvement. I've been on V5 for 10 months. Using io_guy's Automation Shack software, I'm getting direct benefit of Node Server technology. There are additional Node Servers I'm looking to take advantage of.

 

Also, UDI has healthy commercial consulting and power industry projects to keep them not only stable, but growing. How many "flash in the pan" HA hub like solutions have come and gone in the last 2 years... or are very shallow from a capability standpoint?

 

Since new builds generally have some financial "wiggle room", I would get 2 ISY 994is, and make production, and the other one the backup and V5 test box. Chances are you can move some functionality to 5 now. 

 

Paul

[Envirogreen]

I like the idea of two ISYs.

 

I think your "flat in the pan" comment is most applicable...as the answer might be that there isn't a better alternative.  

 

Given the commercial side is strong doesn't mean that they will have an unlimited bucket to invest  on the residential side and that is the crux of my concern.  

 

I haven't seen the pathway to marketing 5.0 and polygots (although I'm sure they have one).  Given the the length of time its taking (which appears to be significantly longer than anticipated) do i invest in ISY (and associated ELK, Insteon, zWave) given this risk.  I'm looking at this in a similar fashion to Homeseers move from v2 to v3 (I believe that was the one that almost destroyed the company).

[paulbates]

The path out of V4 to V5 will be "organic" and not necessarily an X on the calendar.. Its about risk appetite, and which functions/devices you have that could be legitimately deployed under 5 now? For instance, I moved to 5 and kept everything as is. Then, I set up a node server and moved 1 of 2 thermostats to it. I ran that for for a while till I was comfortable, and then moved the other thermostat.  I then changed programs to use new functionality, a little at at time. Break it into pieces, come up with a plan... Lots of backups.  My experience for V4 to V5 was nothing like the HS 2 to 3 upgrade, meaning fairly straight forward with a plan.

 

I like the idea of two ISYs.

When your other half questions it, you can blame me

 

Paul

[Teken]

My reply is geared more toward the infrastructure and future proofing the home when needs arise in no specific order.

 

- Ensure dedicated and isolated power outlets are present in all zones, floors, rooms, areas. Doing so will reduce the likely hood of injected line noise being a problem. Consider installing 12-2 / 12-4 Romex in key area for outlets as this will ensure higher loads can be used when and if needed.

 

- Run conduit in all key areas so this will allow pulling wire of any type easy and always install two pull wires.

 

- Consider installing both Type 1 & Type 2 SPD's at the main service entrance and supply panel. This will ensure a measure of safety and protection for all of your expensive electronics and appliances. Regardless of Type 1 / 2 SPD's in place always deploy and use Type 3 point of use SPD's.

 

- Security / AV: Always run the appropriate CAT6, Coaxial, RG6, 22-4, 22-2, 18-2, 18-4 wires in all areas, zones, floors, rooms, to ensure deployment of hardware is easy to complete. Never allow anyone to install CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) CAT5e, CAT6, CAT7 wiring as its not in wall approved and does not meet industry standards and safety. 

 

Wiring should be in place to detect water leaks from the most common appliances and zones: Fridge, Dishwasher, Washer, HWT, Sump, Sinks, Toilets, etc.

 

- Consider insulating all of the interior walls with Roxul fire proof batting as it offers density, mass which reduces noise, reduces energy consumption, and ensures stable temperatures through out. If your budget allows consider employing PCM technology which is the Cadillac of energy management and temperature control.

 

- Consider installing a battery back up sump pump system or gravity assisted unit if your town, perish, city, allows.

 

- Ensure the HVAC installer uses minimum of 5 wires for the TSTAT run but to play it safe have him install 6-12 wire bundle.

 

- Grounding: If you have a say as to what kind of grounding system is used and employed insist upon the use of a Ufer grounding system. Essentially the ground wire from the POCO is inserted and wrapped in rebar which is part of the homes foundation and ultimately is tied back to the water pipe.

 

This ensures the lowest resistance and highest area saturation for the ground plain.

 

Much more but gots to go . . . 

[Envirogreen]

Paul - this makes a lot of sense...I'm going to move forward with you suggested approach.

 

I'm sure I'll have lots of questions on the details as I move through this...but for now one simple question.

 

I'm assuming you can have only one ISY running at a time, so to use the test ISY I take the PROD system offline upgrade the TEST ISY to v5.x...and let the TEST ISY run ,..if there are any issues you take TEST down and put PROD back up.

 

Is that correct?

[Envirogreen]

Taken 

 

That is a lot of great information...I'll need to take this to the builder.  I know we have some of those items already agreed to but not all.

 

Really appreciate your input!

[Scottmichaelj]

Taken

 

That is a lot of great information...I'll need to take this to the builder. I know we have some of those items already agreed to but not all.

 

Really appreciate your input!

Teken has hit most of the major bullet points. Conduit being top priority if the builder is not willing to budge on the other stuff. If the house is being built depending on the supervisor you "could" make friends ($$) and do a few things here and there on the weekend.

[Teken]

Taken 

 

That is a lot of great information...I'll need to take this to the builder.  I know we have some of those items already agreed to but not all.

 

Really appreciate your input!

 

Not a problem keeping in mind considering this is a obvious long term investment the little extra you pay out now will soon be forgotten in a year. It should also be noted most city / towns have NEC / CEC electrical codes which already mandate how many outlets per foot in a living space must be present.

 

In some areas all you're going to do is add an extra outlet but this will be a dedicated one for what ever you wish like office, movie theater, AV system, network infrastructure.

 

In most parts of North America its not very common to install 12-2 / 12-4 Romex for all outlets. But doing so ensures you always have enough ampacity to plug in and use what ever you like. Even if you can't do the entire home with 12-2 / 12-4 wiring select key areas which make sense to you.

 

The next replies aren't at all related to Home Automation but are important to me and hope some of this helps you enjoy your beautiful home for a very long time because it offers a lifetime of protection and energy efficiency which reduces long term costs.

 

Roof: Consider having the builder install a three layer system which is ice shield, membrane, and metal shingles. All three will ensure a lifetime of protection for the home and it will never blow away if installed properly.

 

Attic: It really doesn't matter where you live but ensure the company installs a minimum of R-60 and above in the attic space. Again if you can choose select Roxul if not have them blow in cellulose insulation as it reduces heat soaking and conductance when compared to fiber glass.

 

Foundation: If finances can allow consider using ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) as this ensures both sides of the foundation is insulated which again reduces energy costs and the home will always be warmer / cooler all year round with out added expense. Please also consider asking the builder to install MS Delta Wrap membrane around the foundation wall.

 

This is essentially a rain coat which is applied after the tar coating to ensure water penetration can never happen even if the foundation wall cracks.

 

Weeping Tile: Almost every home built today uses a perimeter weeping tile system. Many of the installers simply place the plastic pipe around the foundation and apply clean 3/4 crushed rock. Please have them install a weeping tile *Sock* this is basically a white fabrique that covers the plastic pipe which acts like a screen to ensure mud and debris doesn't clog up the weeping tile system.

 

Drywall: Many places in North America already have codes which mandate the garage have a fire break using X-rated drywall. This drywall is specially formulated to reduce the spread of fire but consider having the builder install it in key areas of the home. I did this to my entire home to ensure a measure of safety and give my family extra time should there ever be a fire condition.

 

In some area 5/8" was used but many areas also had double and triple layers to allow the longest burn time.

 

Garage: If the garage is attached to the home please consider buying the highest R value garage door you can. This single door is the largest door in the home and this space contributes one of the highest points of heat soaking and conductance into the building. Also if budget allows please consider having them install a *Hurricane* rated door even if you don't live in such an area.

 

The reason for doing so is from a security stand point they are 10 - 20 times stronger and offer huge force protection than standard doors. Of course please insulate this space also as it will ensure the home is balanced at all times.

 

- Hot Water Tank: Assuming you live in an area where NG is available vs using a electric HWT. Please either consider installing a solar heated HWT, or NG HWT. The costs are easily seen over the long term and if budget allows its probably better to install a instant hot water heater instead but ensure you have the the unit calculated for the loads being seen.

 

The outlay is large initially for all of the above but the long term savings will be seen the very first day and will be for a long time.

[Scottmichaelj]

Not a problem keeping in mind considering this is a obvious long term investment the little extra you pay out now will soon be forgotten in a year. It should also be noted most city / towns have NEC / CEC electrical codes which already mandate how many outlets per foot in a living space must be present.

 

In some areas all you're going to do is add an extra outlet but this will be a dedicated one for what ever you wish like office, movie theater, AV system, network infrastructure.

 

In most parts of North America its not very common to install 12-2 / 12-4 Romex for all outlets. But doing so ensures you always have enough ampacity to plug in and use what ever you like. Even if you can't do the entire home with 12-2 / 12-4 wiring select key areas which make sense to you.

 

The next replies aren't at all related to Home Automation but are important to me and hope some of this helps you enjoy your beautiful home for a very long time because it offers a lifetime of protection and energy efficiency which reduces long term costs.

 

Roof: Consider having the builder install a three layer system which is ice shield, membrane, and metal shingles. All three will ensure a lifetime of protection for the home and it will never blow away if installed properly.

 

Attic: It really doesn't matter where you live but ensure the company installs a minimum of R-60 and above in the attic space. Again if you can choose select Roxul if not have them blow in cellulose insulation as it reduces heat soaking and conductance when compared to fiber glass.

 

Foundation: If finances can allow consider using ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) as this ensures both sides of the foundation is insulated which again reduces energy costs and the home will always be warmer / cooler all year round with out added expense. Please also consider asking the builder to install MS Delta Wrap membrane around the foundation wall.

 

This is essentially a rain coat which is applied after the tar coating to ensure water penetration can never happen even if the foundation wall cracks.

 

Weeping Tile: Almost every home built today uses a perimeter weeping tile system. Many of the installers simply place the plastic pipe around the foundation and apply clean 3/4 crushed rock. Please have them install a weeping tile *Sock* this is basically a white fabrique that covers the plastic pipe which acts like a screen to ensure mud and debris doesn't clog up the weeping tile system.

 

Drywall: Many places in North America already have codes which mandate the garage have a fire break using X-rated drywall. This drywall is specially formulated to reduce the spread of fire but consider having the builder install it in key areas of the home. I did this to my entire home to ensure a measure of safety and give my family extra time should there ever be a fire condition.

 

In some area 5/8" was used but many areas also had double and triple layers to allow the longest burn time.

 

Garage: If the garage is attached to the home please consider buying the highest R value garage door you can. This single door is the largest door in the home and this space contributes one of the highest points of heat soaking and conductance into the building. Also if budget allows please consider having them install a *Hurricane* rated door even if you don't live in such an area.

 

The reason for doing so is from a security stand point they are 10 - 20 times stronger and offer huge force protection than standard doors. Of course please insulate this space also as it will ensure the home is balanced at all times.

 

- Hot Water Tank: Assuming you live in an area where NG is available vs using a electric HWT. Please either consider installing a solar heated HWT, or NG HWT. The costs are easily seen over the long term and if budget allows its probably better to install a instant hot water heater instead but ensure you have the the unit calculated for the loads being seen.

 

The outlay is large initially for all of the above but the long term savings will be seen the very first day and will be for a long time.

Teken, as always good info but if you are not doing a custom home build then some of these suggestions are "when pigs fly" as most builders wont hardly let you do anything outside their normal build process. I have built two homes (not custom) and both builders were very difficult to get any changes to the structure as they file with the city, engineering etc. Added outlets, conduit, cat6 placement sure. Getting deeper into things...doubtful.

 

Maybe depends on your location and housing demand too. Right now theres a housing shortage so getting anything done they just say no and either you accept that or move on.

 

The only way a house that "Teken builds" is a total custom job. Still good info, especially for anyone building a custom home and overall to think about.

[paulbates]

Paul - this makes a lot of sense...I'm going to move forward with you suggested approach.

 

I'm sure I'll have lots of questions on the details as I move through this...but for now one simple question.

 

I'm assuming you can have only one ISY running at a time, so to use the test ISY I take the PROD system offline upgrade the TEST ISY to v5.x...and let the TEST ISY run ,..if there are any issues you take TEST down and put PROD back up.

 

Is that correct?

 

You can have them both running simultaneously, provided you have duplicate ISYs, Zwave Card and PLMs.  I would treat it as a slow migration from ISY1, which is V4, to ISY2 which is V5. This how I migrated from HS to ISY. 

 

Have ISY1 be V4, set all devices and programs up on it. Set up ISY2 as a bare V5 system, no devices or programs.

 

Slowly, over time, migrate groups of things over to ISY2 V5... lets say all of the switches and programs associated with yard lights.. move them at one time as a group to ISY2. Make sure the yard lights and programs work properly on ISY2.  Give it time to validate, then do another group.  

 

One day, ISY1 has nothing on it and becomes backup gear, and the ISY2 V5 box actually becomes the new PROD. 

 

Paul

[Teken]

Teken, as always good info but if you are not doing a custom home build then some of these suggestions are "when pigs fly" as most builders wont hardly let you do anything outside their normal build process. I have built two homes (not custom) and both builders were very difficult to get any changes to the structure as they file with the city, engineering etc. Added outlets, conduit, cat6 placement sure. Getting deeper into things...doubtful.

 

Maybe depends on your location and housing demand too. Right now theres a housing shortage so getting anything done they just say no and either you accept that or move on.

 

The only way a house that "Teken builds" is a total custom job. Still good info, especially for anyone building a custom home and overall to think about.

 

Agreed, depending upon the builder if they are *Track Builders* anything outside of fixtures and outlets some of this may be hard to ask for. But asking is free and some items like conduit is just nothing but plastic pipe of various diameter installed in central to specific locations in the home.

 

A hurricane garage door can always be done later but if you can't just ensure its the highest R rate door. Things like insulation are just easy to do and don't normally get turned down even the roofing elements I suggested. The items which will get flagged is ICF for the foundation if they don't have any experience in doing so.

 

But I am hard pressed to think of anyone in the industry that doesn't know or have experience in doing so. The MS Delta Wrap is industry standard for most and like the exterior wall which many cheap builders use tar paper for the air barrier.

 

Please insist upon them installing Tyvek building wrap or similar . . .

 

Again, this material costs only a little more but the performance and value it offers long term can not be understated. Essentially this is a rain coat for the home which allows moisture to leave but will not allow water penetration. This allows the home to breath and vent naturally over the course of its lifetime regardless of what outer shell you apply over it.

 

Mechanicals like what type of hot water heater really comes down to the consumer paying up front. There isn't a plumber that doesn't know how to install any of the suggested items. It really comes down to either roughing in the infrastructure for later use or at least select the best balance of the three that fits your costs and needs.

 

Like my partner in crime he had the foresight to have the plumber install the largest diameter gas feed to the home. Just doing this at the beginning allowed things like a generator, IHW to needs to have the proper gas diameter supply so things just to keep in mind.

 

Which also translates to the homes service panel if the house is already huge its not an issue. If its a modest sized home under 1500 square feet regardless ensure a 200 amp service panel is present. This ensures almost any renovation and electrical appliance can be added with out issues down the road.

[Scottmichaelj]

So I will add...

 

In both my home builds the hot water tank size and gas size were grossly under estimated. Do the calculations based on what you want and how many of those items (gas/water) running at the same time for your needs. Many people don't do this so in the morning if there are four people getting ready around the same time and everyone takes a shower you could run out of hot water. Or doing a load of dishes and washing your clothes at night again running out of hot water. Dont buy into the HWT "recovery time BS" do hard cacls. If you spend "X" time in the shower and the shower head uses "X" gallons per minute then make sure thats what you have in storage. Recovery time is very loosely based. This also brings up water pressure. You may see about doing a larger line from the HWTs out into the house.

 

If you plumb for natural gas for a BBQ, firepit, and have a upgraded gas fireplace and 6 burner stove, gas furnace, and want to run them all at the same time, guess what, you need larger gas pipe in.

 

Teken touched on the circuits. If you can do a 50Amp for the oven/microwave as some higher end appliances need it, especially if you do a combo unit. I didnt do this and upgraded to a Thermador oven/micro and had to run a new circuit! Doh! Wasnt cheap!

[Teken]

Yup, doing the super structure and infrastructure like water, gas, electrical that is sized properly just makes sense and doesn't add much when you compare it to doing it later.

 

Which is often times next to impossible or cost a arm and a leg . . .

 

One of the most important things you can ever do or ensure is that the HVAC system is calculated properly in terms of pipe diameter, run length, and how many turns are in the system. At this juncture most if not all good HVAC installers should be sealing all pipes and returns with aluminum tape or applied mastic glue.

 

This ensures every CFM is being sucked and blown in the home and reduces the need for zoned systems. Many if not all areas already insist upon 92 and above efficient furnaces so consider spending the money on 92 plus. 

 

Oh, and don't get locked into a proprietary HVAC system which requires their TSTAT! 

[Envirogreen]

Paul - got it and thank you...now I get the plan...I think I'm going to get started on doing this in my current place while the other is being built.

 

Teken/Scott - a lot of good information.  I am already doing a sump batter backup, an NG backup generator.  The  hot water tank is split (?) so it operates as a boiler for the infloor heating.  HVAC is lennox (with their custom thermostat, but I'm assuming I can swap it out if needed...is this a good assumption?)...I'll be doing a printout of this thread so I can walk through these items with the builder (it is custom so I do have flexibility)

[Teken]

Paul - got it and thank you...now I get the plan...I think I'm going to get started on doing this in my current place while the other is being built.

 

Teken/Scott - a lot of good information.  I am already doing a sump batter backup, an NG backup generator.  The  hot water tank is split (?) so it operates as a boiler for the infloor heating.  HVAC is lennox (with their custom thermostat, but I'm assuming I can swap it out if needed...is this a good assumption?)...I'll be doing a printout of this thread so I can walk through these items with the builder (it is custom so I do have flexibility)

 

I would definitely engage the builder to find out the specific model being considered and do some research on the unit. You don't want to find out a dual stage furnace can't operate correctly with a 3rd party TSTAT if you decide to bring your own.

 

I believe Scott can offer some insight about his experience with the Honeywell and how its tied to his furnace. Some of the proprietary use a data link which must be connected for the entire furnace to operate correctly. Whereas others simply rely on the data cable for extra diagnostics and not basic operations of the HVAC system.

 

You don't want to find out later on you can't use your NEST, Venstar, EcoBee, Honeywell, etc

[stusviews]

I made several changes as construction for an added bedroom was ongoing. IMO, the contractor has every right to charge for any deviation from the original agreement, no matter how small. We're happier for it.

[Teken]

Another thing to keep in mind is given the emergence and development of smart door bells. Please consider having CAT5e / CAT6 cable run with the standard door bell wire. Doing so will allow POE for any smart hardware coming down the pipe.

 

 

=========================

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[Scottmichaelj]

I have the Honeywell TruFesh system with multiple zones with dampers that close off upstairs and downstairs and on/off when zone is needed. See my other full post under thermostats. There is an air purifier installed in my home as well.