2450 IOLinc and On Level Setting Affects Scene Off Behavior

[ae7nm]

For most devices turning on a scene sets the included devices sets the devices as specified in the scene attributes for each controller device. Turning off a scene turns off all the devices in a scene regardless of their on settings. It appears that the 2450 IOLinc works a little differently. When I set the On Level to 0% (OFF) turning the scene off turns the relay on. Why? Is this and undocumented feature? Does it have to do with the state of the IOLinc when I added it to ISY?

 

Here are some details:

(2450) IOLinc v.41

ISY v.4.5.1

Latching Mode

Relay follows Input checked

Trigger Reverse is not checked nor are any other options checked

 

The sensor input is connected to the flame on contact closure output of the remote receiver in my gas fireplace. The N/O and COM relay outputs are connected to the flame on inputs of the fireplace valve controller board where the remote receiver outputs used to connect.. I have a scene that has several controllers (Keypad Links and mini wireless remotes) that has the relay in the IOLinc as a responder. The scene also has the senseor of the IOLinc as a controller.

 

All of this works great. I can turn the fireplace on and off with the wireless remote that came with the fireplace, from the Insteon controller, of from my Amazon echo. The lights in keypad buttons that are linked to the scene respond to the wireless remote control that came with the fireplace thanks to the IOLinc sensor being included in the scene. The status LED on the IOLinc turns on bright white when the fireplace is on, as expected. The IOLinc sensor state follows the output of the fireplace's wirelesses remote.

 

I have another scene called ALL that includes most of the devices in my house. I use it to mimic the X-10 ALL Lights On and ALL Units Off commands. I set the On Level for some devices to OFF (0%) for some of the  devices that I don't want to turn on when I turn on the ALL scene. This worked fine .for all of the devices but the IOLinc. Turning off the ALL scene unexpectedly turned the fireplace on. When I set the On level of the IOLinc to ON (100%) in the ALL scene and all of the controllers of the ALL scene, it fixed the problem. Except, of course, the fireplace turns on when ALL is turned on.

 

Why does the IOLinc behave differently than other devices? Is there any way that I can keep from turning on my fireplace when the ALL scene turns on and still have it turn off when the ALL scene is turned off?

 

 

[stusviews]

What's the result of All On and All Off if the sensor is not connected to anything?

[ae7nm]

Same as before. I am beginning to think that this behavior is an undocumented feature.

[stusviews]

I have eight I/O Lincs in use (5 are v.36, 3 are v.41). On turns the relay on and off turns it off. It doesn't matter if I control the relay directly, via a scene or a program.

Edited August 27, 2016 by stusviews

[Brian H]

I did a test with five Insteon modules.
2456S3 ApplianceLinc
2450 I/OLinc Early I1 Hardware
2450 I/OLinc I2CS Hardware Firmware v.41
2457D2 LampLinc
2635-222R On/Off Module
Added all five to the Administrative Console.
Made a Scene called Test.
Added all five modules to the Test Scene
Set all modules to On 0% in the Test Scene
The two 2450 I/OLincs turned Off when the Scene was turned On and On when the scene was turned Off.
The other three modules. Stayed Off when the Scene was turned On and stayed Off when the Scene was turned Off.
So as you suspected the 2450 I/OLIncs act different than most other modules.

I did try using Off in place of the On 0% for the 2450 modules. With the same results.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Brian H

[ae7nm]

Thanks, Brian H.  It's good to know that my observation is not unique. I think that stusviews just missed the point that the IOLinc does what is expected when the On Value is 100%, but behaves differently from other devices when its on value in a scene is 0%. The UDI WikI page for linking the 2450 IOLinc is silent on the subject. I just reread the Insteion manual (Rev. 1/21/2014) in hopes of enlightenment. (Does anybody read these things?) I could not find any description of behavior of the behavior in question.

 

I wonder whether the difference in response to the ON Level in scenes is in the IOLinc firmware or in the UDI software.

 

Has anyone noticed that on page 4-5 it states.

Normally Closed-​-W​hen the I/O Linc output relay is closed, the Normally Closed and Common terminals are connected.

Normally Open-​-When the I/O Linc output relay is open, its Normally Open and Common terminals are connected.

This is an unusual meaning of "relay of closed," It is usually the other way around. These statements also seem to contradict statements in the rest of the document.  At any rate the term closed is ambiguous in this context. It would be better to state what happens when an on command is sent and the state of the outputs when the status light is bright or dim.

 

On page 10 it states "The I/O Linc Status LED will be dim if the relay is open or bright if the relay is closed. Based on observation and test the statements on pages 4-5 quoted above are wrong. In actuality, when the status light is bright (relay is closed), the Normally Open and Common terminals are connected together and vise versa.

[Brian H]

WOW. That manual is confusing on pages 4-5. I could not see that information not being clear.

Calling the relay open and closed is a poor choice of words and confusing.

Relay Off {not activated} and On {Activated} would be a better describe the way the relay outputs work.

 

In electronic terms.

The Normally Open and Normally Closed condition are in relay not being activated state. Even if the IOLinc was unplugged. The Normally Closed set of contacts would be connected to each other and the Normally Open would not be connected.

The LED on mine is dim when the relay is not activated (off). Normally Closed is closed and Normally Open is open.

The LED on mine is bright when the relay is activated (on). Normally Closed it open and Normally Open is closed.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Brian H

[ae7nm]

I agree, referring the to the relay as activated or not activated makes more sense. The examples in the manual connect the loads through the N/O contact. I am not sure how to describe the state of a mechanical or magnetic latching relay, however.

 

As an example of how you would the N/C terminal,  traditional Lionel electric trains with transformer control interrupt track power momentarily to cycle through STOP, FOREWARD, STOP, REVERSE. One could connect the track power through the N/C contact of a I/O Linc set to a momentary mode to control a train's direction.

 

The old X-10 devices used a relay that used cams and pawls to alternate between states as the coil was pulsed. They used feedback from the contacts to the IC to decide whether to pulse the coil or not. Sometimes they would pulse more than once. When you turned on a light you would hear a rapid click, click, click....

 

As I said, I am using version online of the manual (Rev. 1/21/2014) that I downloaded.

 

I am reasonably familiar with all sorts of relays. I am a retired electrical engineer. I have a master's degree in electrical engineering. I specialized in instrumentation and analog circuit design. I also designed a lot of switching power supplies. At any rate I generally understand what is going on. I just try to keep it simple in my posts.

[Brian H]

Well I am a retired Electronic Technician. That did some work for the Electronic Engineers at the very small place I use to work in.

 

Have an FCC General Radio Telephone License and fixed two way radios for awhile.

 

I am familiar with the X10 devices and the loud clunking ratchet switches.

I am one of the Community Advisors on the X10 Forums.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Brian H

[ae7nm]

Brian H

Seems like we are on the same page on this. Thanks for the help. Do you know how we can get Insteon/UDI to fix the documents?

[Brian H]

UDI and Smartlabs {Manufacturing division that holds the Insteon Patents}. Are two separate independent companies.

I think Smartlabs would be responsible for the documentation. Though Smarthome {Sales division} maybe involved with the documentation.

I have the older documentation archived and may see it the older ones where clearer.

[G W]

Brian H

Seems like we are on the same page on this. Thanks for the help. Do you know how we can get Insteon/UDI to fix the documents?

SmartHome documents are pretty much poorly written and have been since the company produced their first product.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Edited August 28, 2016 by GaryFunk

[Brian H]

I looked at three 2450 Users Manuals that I had archived. 02/10/11,04/07/11,10/20/14.
All three used the same descriptions.

 

I tried a 2450 with Houselinc and a spare 2413S PLM. I could not test On and 0% as I don't believe it allowed such a setting.
 

[ae7nm]

The UDI Wiki has a page about the IOLinc. It should contain information about this behavior.

I am not sure if this issue originates in the 2450 or in UDI's software?

[Brian H]

In your original post.

You asked about the relay being On or Off when linked to the ISY994i.  I don't believe it matters.

 

It does matter if you are doing manual set button linking.

I tested a 2450 and a table top mounted KeypadLinc. Spare button A and B.

Depending on the relay being on or off when linked. I could have button A turn it on when button A was on and button B turn it off when button B was turned on.

[toflaherty]

I just ran into this "issue" as well.  I have an all on/off scene, and wanted to set my iolinc to an on level of 0 so that when all the lights are commanded on, the iolinc doesn't turn on.  Likewise, I want the iolinc to turn off when all the lights are commanded off (scene is commanded off), if the iolinc is on.  I'm guessing the only way to fix this is to not have the iolinc in the scene and write a couple programs to control the iolinc when the scene is commanded on/off.  Any other suggestions or is this probably the best way?

[stusviews]

I just ran into this "issue" as well.  I have an all on/off scene, and wanted to set my iolinc to an on level of 0 so that when all the lights are commanded on, the iolinc doesn't turn on.  Likewise, I want the iolinc to turn off when all the lights are commanded off (scene is commanded off), if the iolinc is on.  I'm guessing the only way to fix this is to not have the iolinc in the scene and write a couple programs to control the iolinc when the scene is commanded on/off.  Any other suggestions or is this probably the best way?

 

I'm not sure what you want to accomplish by setting the relay to 0 (zero, off). The relay affects only what's connected to the I/O Linc's contacts (NC, NO and C). The relay does not send any Insteon signals although it can respond to such.

[toflaherty]

I'm not sure what you want to accomplish by setting the relay to 0 (zero, off). The relay affects only what's connected to the I/O Linc's contacts (NC, NO and C). The relay does not send any Insteon signals although it can respond to such.

I fixed it by just leaving the iolinc out of the scene and writing a program to control the relay.  Too bad that "0" on doesn't work for the iolinc like it does for dimmers.  Thanks to the isy to have a workaround!

[stusviews]

Since it's a relay, the I/O linc can't behave like a dimmer. Zero (0) works for the I/O Linc relay exactly the way zero (0) works for any Insteon relay, it means Off.

[toflaherty]

Since it's a relay, the I/O linc can't behave like a dimmer. Zero (0) works for the I/O Linc relay exactly the way zero (0) works for any Insteon relay, it means Off.

Incorrect. It's been reported by others as well that when you put the iolinc relay in a scene and set the on level to 0 for the relay, turning the scene on turns the relay on. Maybe we're misunderstanding each other or I'm just misunderstanding you, but this is what happens. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by toflaherty