FanLinc damaged (8 damaged in total)

[Teken]

The problem you run into with a MOV is its very much something that will degrade over time. In SPD's the MOV is (normally) spec'd to be of sufficient size and tolerance to sustain and accept those brief surge voltages. A capacitor on the other hand is designed specifically to charge and discharge millions of times with out issue.

 

Obviously, I am going to call out this assumes the component is of sufficient quality for ESR, Temp, Voltage, etc.

 

The Snubber is a RC series circuit which includes a resistor, capacitor, and the primary goal is to absorb CEMF seen on motors / relays. Regardless of the above do not try to use a diode regardless of its power handling.

 

Trust me I've seen people try this and it doesn't end too well in that regard. 

[larryllix]

We use MOVs on 120vdc, 120vac, 600vac, 115kV, and 230kV systems without ever hearing about degrading over time.

Most lightning arrestors are MOV technology.

However we have had trouble in high-fault areas where MOVs take out lightning surges in wiring, to sensitive electronics components, and the grid power that follows the high frequncy lightning burst, can make the MOV explode.

In the end, a very smart tech company pointed the way, with a MOV placed in series with a some disc capacitors that can handle the high frequency  and the problem was resolved.

With lightning strike high frequency bursts, the capacitor acts as a low impedance, and the MOV does all the work, absorbing energy. At the powerline frequency (60 Hz). the cap acts as a high impedance and saves the MOV.

With the cap and resistor the resistor is the only component that can actually absorb the counterEMF/spike energy from the inductance. The capacitor will only extend the length of time the spike occurs for but reduce peak volatge. Unfortunately, the resistor limits the amount of action the cap can do, by increasing the impedance of the snubber, and therfore decreasing the rise speed and extension of the spike action. Capacitors don't absorb energy, only shape it.

They both do some good but I would like to see both for critical locations and but still prefer MOVs, as they actually absorb energy, sometimes to their own detriment though. That means the device wasn't suited for that application.
A small 10 - 20 kj MOV can absorb a lot of energy especially for the time needed from a small motor.

 I use straight MOVs in many places, including my 60 amp mecury wetted contactor, isolating my 2HP dust collector motor from an X10 Appliance Module. The first X10 module (without any MOV)  went up in smoke the first time I turned it off.

Since the MOV addition across the solenoid coil, it has functioned well for about two years, without problems. Nasty solenoid coil lifts up about half a pound of mercury.

I also use MOVs in power bars and various receptacles, as they don't absorb Insteon signals like a capacitor networks would do.

So many posts and threads have warned people NOT to use snubber type filters with Insteon signals due to absorption.

[stusviews]

Larry,

 

I just paid a bit more attention to your location and was wondering if you lived near the eastern side of Northern SouthWestern Ontario

[larryllix]

Larry,

 

I just paid a bit more attention to your location and was wondering if you lived near the eastern side of Northern SouthWestern Ontario

If you take a map of southern Ontario, rotate it clockwise about 90 degrees to see the elephant braying, I am right where the ahole is!

 

I can sure tell you are not antisemantic!

[stusviews]

That IS somewhat the eastern area of Northern SouthWestern Ontario, even without the rotation. Quite a tale (not a typo).

 

And, yes, I'm into etymology, but not entomology

[Schwell]

Are there any reliable Z-Wave fan controllers that would be a good replacement for a fanlinc? Or are fanlincs our best choice as ISY owners?

I've already replaced one fanlinc and it is looking like I have two more that will need replacing soon. 

[stusviews]

GE has a dependable Z-Wave in-wall fan controller, but it doesn't control the light, only the fan speeds. That's nice if you already have a 2-gang box with separate fan and light switches. OTOH, I haven't experienced any difficulties with our three FanLincs.

[rafarataneneces]

Anybody knows where to buy the fixed version of the FanLinc?

I am 99% sure if I buy in Smarthome it will fail they will send me 1.9

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rafarataneneces]

As noted in several forum threads many ceiling fans have caused erratic to complete failure of the Insteon Fan Linc. All of the forum threads on this subject matter were resolved (long term) by installing a RC Snubber across the load / neutral. The ideal value is 0.1 uF @120 ohms for the least amount of Insteon signal absorption.

 

Most of the RC Snubbers you will find will have values ranging from 45 - 100 ohms which is still OK.

 

Regardless, I don't know what Gary used to confirm the start up vs running amperes in the fan. But as Stu correctly noted start up (inrush) current is one of the primary factors which causes a short service life in most hardware. It doesn't excuse Smartlabs from offering a solid product using the highest quality parts which in the big picture only adds something in the order of $0.05 to $0.28 to the final product cost(s).

 

Lastly, I would expect a little more clarity on that 3 amp rating from the fan maker. Normally the sticker would *clearly* state the fan consumed XX amps, and if the fan had lights it would also state the maximum loads that could be inserted. Normally it ranges from 40-60 watts and a few fringe ones say 100 watt bulbs are OK but normally have less than two bulbs vs 3-4.

Would you mind posting a picture/instructions on what to do so I can instal the RC Snubber so FanLinc won't damage again?

 

Also do you have links to Amazon product description?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brian H]

The Red Lion SNUB0000 is the one I remember seeing mentioned.

http://www.redlion.net/accessory/snub-r-c-snubber-inductive-load-supressor

 

https://www.amazon.com/RED-LION-SNUB0000-SURGE-PROTECTOR/dp/B00BUMY6LQ

 

The Red Lion part is around $7.00 in my web searches.

It also seems to be available for sale. On their web site in the above link.

 

Another brand snubber with the same .1uF cap and 47 Ohm resistor in series in a molded case. That looks like a capacitor with component leads can also be found in most electronic catalogs. For around the same cost as the Red Lion.

[rafarataneneces]

Do you have pictures on how to install this?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brian H]

I don't have photos of a Snubber connected to a FanLinc or where it was connected.

 

I have used snubbers with other inductive loads.

 

Teken may have exact details.

Most times they are across the load's connections.

 

There is a QUENCHARC snubber with the same size capacitor and resistor in it as an alternate. Though no less costly.

 

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cornell-Dubilier-CDE/104M06QC47/?qs=u7ZFOgOpR2von6jon2HJQQ%3d%3d

[Jimbo.Automates]

Anyone received a fanlinc from SH recently?  Are they still 1.9?  I have two more 1.9's with issues and have requested RMA's...

[boojew]

Anyone received a fanlinc from SH recently?  Are they still 1.9?  I have two more 1.9's with issues and have requested RMA's...

Yes. Yes, they are. Sigh

[Jimbo.Automates]

Yes. Yes, they are. Sigh

Well, that's a bummer. I guess I'll have to send in my RMAs before they expire

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[rafarataneneces]

They are 2.0 or 2.1 I believe.

You peel off the sticker it says 1.4 lol

 

So the new revision is based on old revision that works.

 

Call them tell them to send you a working 2.x revision

[Brian H]

Could be they reworked a 1.4 to a new 2.0 or 2.1 standard before selling them or sending them for RMAs. And stuck the new sticker on them.

I have a few modules where the hardware label has an updates one stuck on it.

Or your thoughts are correct and they are relabeling the 1.4s. That seem to be much more reliable.

[Jimbo.Automates]

Thanks, I have asked multiple times if they are still sending 1.9 and they will not answer. I will include a note in my RMA and hope.

 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

We need the new CEOs email adress and clue the guy in.

They (SH) probably have found that eventually some will get garbaged insted of returned.

 

I know anything I get from SH to Canada is a write off due to the high cost of returning the product.

If something new doesn't work, you throw it out. It's cheaper for Canadians and SH (not S...Heads ) profits.  In view of that (QA?) I will never order directly from SH  again.

[MrTinker]

So I now find myself embroiled in this saga as well. I have a total of six fans (now all Hunter, a couple different models but none that expensive). I have one FanLinc that is older, but I'm not sure of the model. I have four v1.9 FanLincs that have failed (lost one or more speeds). I wrote to SmartHome (as all were purchased there) and was provided the below responses by Charlie (Customer Solution Lead):

 

"Thank you for contacting Smarthome. To be honest, it sounds like the Fanlincs are not going to be compatible with your fans that you are using. Incompatible fans can put extra strain on the Fanlincs and cause the Capacitor or Triac module to overload and stop functioning. Sometimes it can be just one of the speeds and sometimes it can be all of them at once. The only thing that is for sure is that when one of the fan speeds stops working (or starts to make a loud humming or grinding noise) it is only a matter of time before the rest of the speeds go out. I would be happy to exchange any Fanlincs that are still under warranty but I can almost guarantee that if it happened before it will happen again. What type of fan are you using?"

 

NOTE: I indicated the below fans are the ones I'm using:

http://www.hunterfan.com/Ceiling-Fans/Matheston?ModelNumber=54091

http://www.hunterfan.com/Ceiling-Fans/Builder-Elite-ENERGY-STAR?ModelNumber=53241

http://www.hunterfan.com/Ceiling-Fans/Royal-Oak?ModelNumber=54017

 

"Thank you for contacting Smarthome. Unfortunately, there is insufficient information supplied by the manufacturer to know for sure whether these fan models will work with the Fanlincs. At this time, since you have used Fanlincs before on these fans and they did not work for long, I would not recommend using the Fanlincs again with these fans."

 

I haven't found a list of compatible/recommended fans from Insteon/SmartHome or even any specifications other than 1amp or less (for the fan motor).

 

I responded with: 

"Can you please provide a list of compatible fans or specifications that are compatible with the Insteon FanLincs? How can we get the RMA process started for the four FanLincs I have that need to be replaced? From what I’ve been reading, v2.1 are the latest version of the FanLincs, is that correct? Is there a way to insure that’s the version I would receive for my replacements?"

 

Would the snubbers people have referenced above be a solution to the issues (or at least a potential solution)? I replaced two fans with the Hunters (and I tested with one FanLinc before ordering more) and since it worked, I ordered more.

[stusviews]

Others have reported problems with v1.9 FanLincs, but, apparently, not with other versions. I have a FanLinc working with a Hunter fan. The ISY reports v.41, but that's not the same as is on the paper label. I'm not about to pull down the fan to read the label.

[larryllix]

This sounds like the triacs do not have a high enough voltage rating to break the fan on high speed with the counterEMF that a motor can generate when suddenly switched to an open circuit at the peak of a current waveform.

 

My guess is that a small MOV between the motor and neutral leads would certainly help. What do you have to lose but another fanlinc under warranty?

With enough warranty replacements, maybe SH will get their a$$ in gear and do something. Nothing else has motivated them.

[MrTinker]

This sounds like the triacs do not have a high enough voltage rating to break the fan on high speed with the counterEMF that a motor can generate when suddenly switched to an open circuit at the peak of a current waveform.

 

My guess is that a small MOV between the motor and neutral leads would certainly help. What do you have to lose but another fanlinc under warranty?

With enough warranty replacements, maybe SH will get their a$$ in gear and do something. Nothing else has motivated them.

 

Can you recommend a MOV and possibly where to source it? I'll certainly give it a shot  I saw another of your posts re: Snubber absorption of Insteon signal so I'm willing to give a MOV a try. As you say, not much to lose

 

Thanks in advance for the help. The wife acceptance factor on the FanLincs is already low (not helpful when she's pregnant and the ceiling fan won't work) so I'll try to test on one that is less critical

[larryllix]

Can you recommend a MOV and possibly where to source it? I'll certainly give it a shot  I saw another of your posts re: Snubber absorption of Insteon signal so I'm willing to give a MOV a try. As you say, not much to lose

 

Thanks in advance for the help. The wife acceptance factor on the FanLincs is already low (not helpful when she's pregnant and the ceiling fan won't work) so I'll try to test on one that is less critical

Sorry. I have not bought electronic parts for years now but you want a MOV rated for 120V AC with a 10,000 or 20,000 joule rating. It should cost about $2-3 each. They look like a two legged lollipop and you will need some heatshrink sleeving to cover the bare legs that stick out of the wire nut connectors. Connect across the fan motor from hot to neutral.

 

 

Here is one rated at 4500 amperes. They don't seem to show Kilojoule ratings anymore and the price has changed a bit. I saw one rated at 10,000 amperes but lost the webpage.

https://www.e-sonic.com/product-detail/bourns/mov14d201k.html?p=43920848

 

For the price get a bunch.

 

 

Funny story: I built a remote control for my shop dust collector, 2 HP motor, and the first X10 module ,rated at 15A 120Vac (yeah! resistive only) , I plugged the Dust Collector in, and the X10 module  blew up the first time I turned it off (broke the current with the relay contacts).

 

So I got this huge mercury wetted solenoid style relay, from my junk box, I salvaged from a test board  rebuild at work (weighs about 3 pounds full of  liquid mercury) and connected it to my next X10 appliance module victim.   Worked great! ....   once.   The X10 relay didn't like to break the current on the big coil either.   Two X10 Appliance modules down....

 

Next comes the MOV across the coil, and a new X10 Appliance module ...no problem.  Grab into a huge bag of 130Vac MOVs and install one across the coil of the mercury wetted relay. Bang!  Turns out the MOV is the one and only 81Vdc MOV  unit for 48vdc battery banks....and I grabbed it.  Three X10 nodules down...

 

Read the actual rating on the next MOV and replaced the pieces left from the old one...new X10 Appliance module.

 

Been working fine for the last three years with an old X10 remote  but I keep dropping the remote and it flies apart, into the wood shavings every time!  Full of many electrical tape layers now. I think it will bounce!

 

Moral of the story!...  MOVs work well!!

If it can work for this beast of a coil it can work for a fan motor.

 

 

CAUTION. When these things just can't absorb any more current they explode and pieces can fly.  Make sure it is in a metal box, Fan enclosure box should be fine. You would know. They sound like a big firecracker.

[MrTinker]

Hmmmmm, hopefully the wife will never hear a firecracker, lol

 

How about this?  http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Littelfuse/TMOV20RP130M/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuQmL5N8IqpX6QPI%2fiCWrHwIXoHQjQ6nko%3d

 

Thanks for the guidance.