Smarthome SELECT Electronic Water Shutoff Valve, 3/4-inch, 12V DC

[Teken]

In the context I am using bust strength it has to do with its ability to flex much more in extreme cold before blowing out. Here in Canada where I live they still use 3-5 feet of copper leading to the outside. The rest is tied to PEX or similar material for the obvious reasons you listed out above.

 

Based on past research there is no less than five quality brands of none copper piping. Some offer higher tolerances and fittings to reduce pressure loss etc.

[Blackbird]

Pex is way better than copper. It eliminates all T-junctioms and elbows; thus increasing water flow and pressure.

I have a ranch style house with an open basement. Since I'm building out the basement I'm adding Pex as new plumbing and at the same time replacing all the copper. I do not have to open any walls.

Cost of water and gas is not an issue. I'll use an Arduino to communicate with the ISY.

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Waterflow is the reason I stay away from pex. Each fitting or elbow inserts inside the tube which is smaller in diameter then the tube which reduces Waterflow. Where as copper is consistent. In my house I have 1/2 inch copper so if I went with 3/4 pex then that would be better. Just my opinion. Edited October 5, 2016 by Blackbird

[Ajax]

GaryFunk, have you thought about using an external temp sensor on the outside of the pex for each hot waterline, set some parameters to arm a standard solenoid valve like: http://store.flw.com/products/asco-series-8262-2-way-solenoid-valve-8262h002-120-60-110-50.html?gclid=CITi1KKxxM8CFQ6EaQodGIYCZg and start a timer once its reach to slowly close the valve until only cold remains, that way if it shuts off the water and keeps the cold going it will remind them to still shut of the valves and not not leave when the valves are on?

[Teken]

Even though I measure my water lines including the hot water tank its not something I would rely upon for mission critical needs. It really come down to what type of sensors being used and their accuracy. It doesn't even address how long it takes for something to change state from one temperature to another.

 

Below is a image capture of the HWT in my home . . .

[G W]

Waterflow is the reason I stay away from pex. Each fitting or elbow inserts inside the tube which is smaller in diameter then the tube which reduces Waterflow. Where as copper is consistent. In my house I have 1/2 inch copper so if I went with 3/4 pex then that would be better. Just my opinion.

I won't be using elbows and I think your using the wrong fittings.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[G W]

GaryFunk, have you thought about using an external temp sensor on the outside of the pex for each hot waterline, set some parameters to arm a standard solenoid valve like: http://store.flw.com/products/asco-series-8262-2-way-solenoid-valve-8262h002-120-60-110-50.html?gclid=CITi1KKxxM8CFQ6EaQodGIYCZg and start a timer once its reach to slowly close the valve until only cold remains, that way if it shuts off the water and keeps the cold going it will remind them to still shut of the valves and not not leave when the valves are on?

I don't know why some are thinking I am closing valves. I only to know when water is flowing to a zone.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[G W]

Not sure how it gets rid of T's since those are for turning 1 line into 2.

Why would I turn one line into two?

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Edited October 5, 2016 by GaryFunk

[Teken]

In most homes there will be several locations where a line will need to be T'd off. Those who have a straight home run through out the home are extremely lucky.

 

But, that is near impossible for an entire home . . .

[apostolakisl]

I won't be using elbows and I think your using the wrong fittings.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

I suppose then you mean my plumber used the wrong fittings.  But he did not.  Failure rates are not zero for anything.

 

I've got to see how you are going to set up your house without using a single elbow or t.   I guess you are going to have a manifold at the main house valve with a home run line to every single individual water using device so as to avoid any T fittings?  Even in a small house, that would probably be 50 pipes.  Easily could be over 100 in a larger house with washing machines, dish washers, multiple kitchen sinks, 6 or 7 lines to each bathroom, multiple refrigerators, utility sinks, hose bibs, and so on and so on.

 

You say it is a ranch, so I guess if you are going in your attic, and your attic is inside the house insulation envelope.  You can turn the corner easily to go down the walls from the attic, yes.  But there is no way you are going to turn out at the wall for your sink, toilet, and at similar locations. The standard is to crimp on to a copper pipe that mounts to the stud and pokes through the wall for your sink or toilet valve attachment.  Pex won't do a 90 turn in 3.5 inches and even if it did, you still have to crimp onto a valve, and if you were to do that, you would have the flexible blue/red pipe poking through the wall looking a little goofy and not very stable since pex flexess.  But no matter what, you still have to do a crimp of some sort at least once.

Edited October 5, 2016 by apostolakisl

[apostolakisl]

I don't know why some are thinking I am closing valves. I only to know when water is flowing to a zone.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

 

You said you wanted to stop your kids from taking 30 minute showers.  I guess you'll just go in there and turn it off by hand, or yell at them?  Certainly I've done the latter.  Maybe you can time their showers and make a spreadsheet and base their allowance off of it?

Edited October 5, 2016 by apostolakisl

[Ajax]

Well not sure why I thought that but then the external temp probe should be least invasive way to try I know this is not pretty but gives you an idea 

[G W]

I suppose then you mean my plumber used the wrong fittings. But he did not. Failure rates are not zero for anything.

 

I've got to see how you are going to set up your house without using a single elbow or t. I guess you are going to have a manifold at the main house valve with a home run line to every single individual water using device so as to avoid any T fittings? Even in a small house, that would probably be 50 pipes. Easily could be over 100 in a larger house with washing machines, dish washers, multiple kitchen sinks, 6 or 7 lines to each bathroom, multiple refrigerators, utility sinks, hose bibs, and so on and so on.

 

You say it is a ranch, so I guess if you are going in your attic, and your attic is inside the house insulation envelope. You can turn the corner easily to go down the walls from the attic, yes. But there is no way you are going to turn out at the wall for your sink, toilet, and at similar locations. The standard is to crimp on to a copper pipe that mounts to the stud and pokes through the wall for your sink or toilet valve attachment. Pex won't do a 90 turn in 3.5 inches and even if it did, you still have to crimp onto a valve, and if you were to do that, you would have the flexible blue/red pipe poking through the wall looking a little goofy and not very stable since pex flexess. But no matter what, you still have to do a crimp of some sort at least once.

I give up. You're too hard to deal with and that message was not directec at you.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

You said you wanted to stop your kids from taking 30 minute showers. I guess you'll just go in there and turn it off by hand, or yell at them? Certainly I've done the latter. Maybe you can time their showers and make a spreadsheet and base their allowance off of it?

Oh, bother. Go away.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Edited October 5, 2016 by GaryFunk

[Teken]

LMAO . . .

 

There isn't enough pop corn in my bowl today to enjoy the rants. 

[apostolakisl]

I give up. You're too hard to deal with.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Oh, bother. Go away.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Seriously, is this what you are doing?  Home running every single fixture?  Running pex directly into the toilet or sink?  How are making these observations a bother?

[apostolakisl]

Well not sure why I thought that but then the external temp probe should be least invasive way to try I know this is not pretty but gives you an idea 

I've seen this idea used elsewhere.  It is probably a very good way to look for hot water usage, except it doesn't really tell you when it shut off very accurately since it take a while to cool off.

[apostolakisl]

Just did some research. 

 

Pex 1/2 inch bend radius varies, but 3.75 to 5 inches is the range I found.  Can't do that in a 2x4 wall, at least not to a nice perfect 90 degree poke out of the wall.

 

I did see where people used a chrome sleeve over the pex sticking out of the floor to dress it up.  Suppose you could do it for a wall fitting too if you had a 2x6 wall to make the bend.

 

EDIT:

Did see where some people had like 30 output manifolds.  Totally doable, just a lot of pipe.

Edited October 5, 2016 by apostolakisl

[Teken]

The tightest bend you can achieve with common PEX is like this sleeve.

[G W]

Seriously, is this what you are doing? Home running every single fixture? Running pex directly into the toilet or sink? How are making these observations a bother?

Yes. All home runs. 20 of the runs are under 20 feet. The longest run is 30 feet. The manifold sits in the basement in the center of the house. The main full bathroom is directly above the full bathroom in the basement and four feet from the manifold. That is 16 runs. I only have 35 runs. I'm using expansion joints where a full 1/2 inch copper pipe will fit inside a 1/2 inch Pex pipe.

 

It's a bother because I simply ask for information on a flow sensor, not a flow meter or shutoff valve. This has gotten way out of hand.

 

The manifold has individual shutoff valves and I can attach devices to those to turn then on and off, should I decided to.

 

I don't need to make sharp 90° turns.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

Edited October 5, 2016 by GaryFunk

[G W]

In most homes there will be several locations where a line will need to be T'd off. Those who have a straight home run through out the home are extremely lucky.

 

But, that is near impossible for an entire home . . .

I have a full open basement with a single story house. I built out instead of up.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[Teken]

Bungalos saves the knee's too when you get older. In most places a basement isn't considered part of the square footage and since I was thinking long term.

 

Think rape tax's from the Nazi's . . .

 

I made sure the basement was the exact same square feet as the main floor. So this allows me in the future to have all the same rooms and bathrooms in the basement for less!

[G W]

Bungalos saves the knee's too when you get older. In most places a basement isn't considered part of the square footage and since I was thinking long term.

 

Think rape tax's from the Nazi's . . .

 

I made sure the basement was the exact same square feet as the main floor. So this allows me in the future to have all the same rooms and bathrooms in the basement for less!

Exactly. Military, jumping, storm chasing and drinking has ruined my knees. I bought this house because I didn't want to climb stairs everyday. I have more room than I need and seven bedrooms.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[apostolakisl]

1) Motion sensor in the shower for detecting showers lasting too long.

2) flow metering is just more detailed flow sensing and can be bought for about the same price, depending on the model.

3) flow sensors (on/off) style have lots of complaints on amazon about flow restriction, not seen that with flow meters

4) monitoring a flow meter doesn't cost any more than monitoring a flow sensor, just different parts (cai board vs i/o linc)

5) putting a flow meter or sensor on your water lines is going to involve two fittings, seems to be against your basic premise of getting rid of connections.

6) the title of this thread is ". . .shut off valve. . .", so it seemed like that was what we were talking about.

[apostolakisl]

The tightest bend you can achieve with common PEX is like this sleeve.

 

Looks about like the specs I saw.  2 brands I found, one was 3.75 and the other 5 inch radius.  3.75 you could probably make work given the extra 1/2 inch of sheet rock.  Of course the 3.75/5 was the inside radius, so you lose the 1/2 inch or so to the other side of the pipe where it is pressed against the sheetrock on the other side of the wall.

Edited October 5, 2016 by apostolakisl

[apostolakisl]

Also, if you have unfinished basement under the shower, you can drill a hole in the drain line and put a temp probe, sealing it up with epoxy.  Put it on the side of the pipe just before it falls into the trap and it will only be warm while water is actively flowing down the drain and washing over the probe.  Once the shower ends, the probe will quickly cool off since it will be touching only air.

[Teken]

With respect to any temperature probe being used a person must ensure the proper diameter wire, run length, and topology is used for 1 wire networks.

 

If you are using something other than 1 wire - wire length, diameter, and stable voltage is key. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Teken