apostolakisl Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 With respect to any temperature probe being used a person must ensure the proper diameter wire, run length, and topology is used for 1 wire networks. If you are using something other than 1 wire - wire length, diameter, and stable voltage is key. In reality, it really doesn't matter what the temp is. You just need to look for a rise indicating start and fall indicating end. If it were me, I would use a cai board and a 1-wire waterproof probe. I would do it that way because it is pretty cheap, because I know how to write the code in about 10 minutes on a cai, and because I know it would do what I want. Alternatively, you could look for an open/close circuit temp sensor. They make these things, but exactly where you buy it I don't know. Basically, when the temp goes above some set point, it opens a contact. It is a mechanical thing, like an old fashion thermostat. That plus an iolinc would accomplish the same result. Link to comment
Guitartexan01 Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 It would seem to me that an ideal solution would be Colonel Klinks voice in the shower telling them they have two more minutes and then a zwave water valve (rated for hot water) closing the hot water supply to that shower. They can still take longer showers, just not hot. Wait fifteen minutes and the valve reopens automatically. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment
Blackbird Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 No you need a water sensor connected to a zone. When the water sensor is "violated" (triggered by water) then your ELK will turn it off via the "OUT" on the ELK M1G board. The installation instructions are here (which are the same as the one you got): http://www.elkproducts.com/products/elk-wsv2-professional-grade-water-shutoff-valve Then you will create a "Rule" in the ElkRP software that says: When Zone "X" is violated Then turn off water Also be aware to help minimize or clear mineral buildup on the valve face, periodically auto-cycle it once a week, month, etc. EDIT: Here is an example of a hardwire water sensor http://www.homesecuritystore.com/safety/water-flood-sensors/tri-ed-2600 The water shutoff I have only has 3 wires (Red, Green and black) where as the ELK has (Green, Black, Red, White) Any idea about this? I'm guessing green on mine is white on the ELK but I'm not sure Link to comment
Guitartexan01 Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 Most probably the Elk is : G=ground W= neutral or common B/R signal open/closed The one with only three wires most probably only has the common and two signal wires. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment
G W Posted October 8, 2016 Author Share Posted October 8, 2016 Most probably the Elk is : G=ground W= neutral or common B/R signal open/closed The one with only three wires most probably only has the common and two signal wires. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Black is negative. You apply positive to red and green to open and close the valve. Everything one needs to know is on the SmartHome website. S.A.T.T.P. Best regards, Gary Funk Link to comment
jgcharlotte Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 I ordered this one off of Amazon. Seems like pretty decent quality, although I haven't installed it yet. I like that it is 120V, so I can just operate it with an on/off module, no separate power supply needed. It is normally closed - 120V opens it, remove 120V and it is spring return to close. I'll be installing a bypass valve for manual control if it fails or power goes off. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PVQFTHW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Link to comment
Teken Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Don't know how anyone is going to reliably confirm this valve is open / closed? Hope? Also, one thing you need to check is how much drift the valve will see over the course of XXX full cycles. Even though the OP is just turning the valve open / closed for his use case. Those intending to use this device or similar on the main water line really need to confirm how this device behaves over extended use. Lastly, it should be noted confirmation of the actual open / close state when the manual dial is used should not count on the red hash mark as the final indicator position. Because if you look after 100 plus cycles the red hash mark won't align to a real world open / closed position. This is why those using this type of device must consider and invest the money for a proper manual bypass with the appropriate down stream shut offs. ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. Link to comment
jgcharlotte Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Don't know how anyone is going to reliably confirm this valve is open / closed? Agree. Coming from an industrial automation background, I always think about stuff like that. I will also have a hall effect flow sensor inline. Haven't decided yet how I'm going to use it. The motorized ball valve will be bypassed by a manual ball valve and I have an upstream cutoff. Link to comment
Teken Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Good man. Also it should be noted my comments were provided for insight and guidance for all and not directed toward any single person. For those of us who have come from an industrial setting lots of these checks and balances are just basic SOP. No magic here it's just experience with lots of common sense. Other things to consider is how these valves fail when interrupted or see a voltage swing. Some will fail open while others will return to their last known state. Anyone considering doing this sort of thing really need to test, validate, and follow up to ensure the correct response is seen. For me I can totally understand the whole steamy shower issue because it costs money, introduces fire safety, and is the leading cause to mold. I simply gave the water bill to the little monster! ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. Link to comment
apostolakisl Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Don't know how anyone is going to reliably confirm this valve is open / closed? Hope? Also, one thing you need to check is how much drift the valve will see over the course of XXX full cycles. Even though the OP is just turning the valve open / closed for his use case. Those intending to use this device or similar on the main water line really need to confirm how this device behaves over extended use. Lastly, it should be noted confirmation of the actual open / close state when the manual dial is used should not count on the red hash mark as the final indicator position. Because if you look after 100 plus cycles the red hash mark won't align to a real world open / closed position. This is why those using this type of device must consider and invest the money for a proper manual bypass with the appropriate down stream shut offs. ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. Not sure how this valve works, but the Elk valve runs in circles. It has cams affixed to the valve post. The cams trigger limit switches. So it could never get out of calibration unless the set screws were not screwed down. There is essentially no friction on the cams as the turn, just a very light rub on the limit switch. Link to comment
G W Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 Don't know how anyone is going to reliably confirm this valve is open / closed? Hope? Also, one thing you need to check is how much drift the valve will see over the course of XXX full cycles. Even though the OP is just turning the valve open / closed for his use case. Those intending to use this device or similar on the main water line really need to confirm how this device behaves over extended use. Lastly, it should be noted confirmation of the actual open / close state when the manual dial is used should not count on the red hash mark as the final indicator position. Because if you look after 100 plus cycles the red hash mark won't align to a real world open / closed position. This is why those using this type of device must consider and invest the money for a proper manual bypass with the appropriate down stream shut offs. ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. I just finished running mine through 250 cycles and it's perfect. I opened up the unit and the manual indicator is gear driven so I see no reason it will not indicate correctly. S.A.T.T.P. Best regards, Gary Funk Link to comment
apostolakisl Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 I just finished running mine through 250 cycles and it's perfect. I opened up the unit and the manual indicator is gear driven so I see no reason it will not indicate correctly. S.A.T.T.P. Best regards, Gary Funk Yes, the Elk indicator is even more direct than gear. It is the top of the shaft that is the same piece of metal that is the ball. A misalignment would literally mean the stainless steal post (which is roughly 1/4 inch diameter) was snapped. I have run my Elk through thousands of cycles. It has been in place for 7 years and turns on/off every time we arm/disarm the alarm to away. So, on average, perhaps 2 cycles per day. Link to comment
jgcharlotte Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 For those of us who have come from an industrial setting lots of these checks and balances are just basic SOP. Yes, when I was designing industrial control systems (hardware and software) I used the 'what if' test extensively. Link to comment
visualcoat Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 This has been a great post. Out of the following products which would you recommend I purchase. 1. SELECT 2. ELK 3. BACOENG Link to comment
G W Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 This has been a great post. Out of the following products which would you recommend I purchase. 1. SELECT 2. ELK 3. BACOENG If you have an Elk and price does not metter get the Elk. Otherwise get the Select. S.A.T.T.P. Best regards, Gary Funk Link to comment
jgcharlotte Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 I like the Bacoeng, it seems pretty solid and I like the fact that it is 110v, but be forewarned, on mine the connection inside the plug already broke. The wires are like 28 ga or something, I already have to replace the plug with something more substantial. Link to comment
Teken Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Also keep in mind some of the units fail closed upon power loss. That should never be the case for the main water line. Also note these devices may never be placed before a fire suppression system which supplies water. Both of these points are rarely if ever considered by those who install them. Other factors to consider is the type of water you have. This is why having a bypass service loop is paramount as this allows you to remove the unit for buildup inspection and cleaning. Those considering using this for hot water must always perform a yearly inspection because calcium buildup is always present in hot water applications. ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. Link to comment
G W Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 Also keep in mind some of the units fail closed upon power loss. That should never be the case for the main water line. Also note these devices may never be placed before a fire suppression system which supplies water. Both of these points are rarely if ever considered by those who install them. Other factors to consider is the type of water you have. This is why having a bypass service loop is paramount as this allows you to remove the unit for buildup inspection and cleaning. Those considering using this for hot water must always perform a yearly inspection because calcium buildup is always present in hot water applications. ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. My fire suppression isn't water. S.A.T.T.P. Best regards, Gary Funk Link to comment
Teken Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Either is mine but for those who have common water suppression systems need to ensure code is followed. For those of us who use halon suppression for component protection along with chemical agents for wide and immediate fire abatement it's a good compromise for using water . Can't use water in the GWN when it's -40'C! ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. Link to comment
G W Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 Either is mine but for those who have common water suppression systems need to ensure code is followed. For those of us who use halon suppression for component protection along with chemical agents for wide and immediate fire abatement it's a good compromise for using water . Can't use water in the GWN when it's -40'C! ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. How many homes have a water suppression system? And whom still uses Halon? S.A.T.T.P. Best regards, Gary Funk Link to comment
Teken Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Can't say as it's not very common in Canada. But in the USA and other warmer climates water is the preferred choice. I use Halon because it was available, cheap, and works. The biggest down side is the obvious human death that can happen if the room is sealed. Comes down to common sense deployment and following best practices. ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. Link to comment
G W Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 Can't say as it's not very common in Canada. But in the USA and other warmer climates water is the preferred choice. I use Halon because it was available, cheap, and works. The biggest down side is the obvious human death that can happen if the room is sealed. Comes down to common sense deployment and following best practices. ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. I've never seen a single house with a water suppression system in the US. I have never met a builder that installs one in a house and I've met thousands of house builders. S.A.T.T.P. Best regards, Gary Funk Link to comment
apostolakisl Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 I do believe that there are places where code now requires fire suppression sprinklers in all new construction single family homes. I think you can guess where those places might be. I'm going to assume that code in those places calls for a separate service for the sprinkler. At least in my commercial building sprinkler system, there is a completely separate hookup to the water main. This hookup does not have a pressure regulator, it pulls the full street pressure. My building has a dry system. The sprinkler system is a very expensive system prone to failure and has literally caused over $300,000 in damage plus about $100,000 in maintenance over the last decade. So far it hasn't put out any fires. I don't doubt that the fire protection lobby has just a little to do with the codes. Link to comment
G W Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 I do believe that there are places where code now requires fire suppression sprinklers in all new construction single family homes. I think you can guess where those places might be. I'm going to assume that code in those places calls for a separate service for the sprinkler. At least in my commercial building sprinkler system, there is a completely separate hookup to the water main. This hookup does not have a pressure regulator, it pulls the full street pressure. My building has a dry system. The sprinkler system is a very expensive system prone to failure and has literally caused over $300,000 in damage plus about $100,000 in maintenance over the last decade. So far it hasn't put out any fires. I don't doubt that the fire protection lobby has just a little to do with the codes. No one has brought this up at any of the national home builders shows this year. I'll search and see what I can find. S.A.T.T.P. Best regards, Gary Funk Link to comment
giesen Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 This has been a great post. Out of the following products which would you recommend I purchase. 1. SELECT 2. ELK 3. BACOENG Greenfield ASV: http://www.greenfielddirect.com/automatic-security-valves/ FYI Greenfield is the OEM for the Elk valves Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Link to comment
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