Z-Wave & Insteon Hybrid system - can it be avoided?

[txNgineer]

Please move this if I am posting to the wrong spot.  I need some help with my overall system.  I have a mostly Insteon arrangement and am having to migrate to Z-Wave.  Unfortunately I have bumped into things that I cannot solve and hope you can assist me.

 

My questions are related to the following:

      Z-Wave problems:

           1.  I need portable or tabletop remotes (not my phone) to turn on, off, dim, etc. various devices.  I cannot find an ISY supported portable remote that can do this.  Is there one?  (Yes, I know that 5.x alpha might work with my Aeon Minimote, but the "alpha" and a years worth of "real soon" comments make this unattractive)

           2. I cannot figure out how to get Z-Wave devices to control or trigger scenes on the ISY.  Is there a way?

           3. I cannot figure out how to clone or mirror two Z-Wave devices.  If device A is turned to 50% dim, then I want device B to also go to 50% dim, and vice versa.  Is there a programming way to do this?

  

      Insteon problems:

           4.  Their range and reliability is between poor and pitiful.  With the Z-Wave modules, three of them do the needed hops to reach from one end of my system to the other (appx 120 yds).  I have tried Insteon with 4 dual-band modules and they still cannot bridge the two end points.  I have also tried the X-10 bridge module from Smarthome and it did not help.  Is there any wired device solution?  I have about decided to use an Arduino and a 2213S PLM to build my own Ethernet based repeater, but that is a lot of bother if one already exists.

      

I am one of the 20% of the country that live in a rural environment where "home" automation is more of a necessity than a luxury.  Because of that, some of my nodes are a long distance from others.  But having a working system that alerts me to a freezing problem at the well or low fuel in the propane tank is as important to me as the gas gauge on your car is to you.

 

Any suggestions or help will be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

[G W]

Item 2. A problem with Z-Wave is many devices DO NOT report status.

 

B.R.I.A.D.A.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[MWareman]

Item 2. A problem with Z-Wave is many devices DO NOT report status.

 

B.R.I.A.D.A.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

This (for OPs second issue).

 

Either buy Levitron zwave devices, or from a vendor that licensed the Levitron patent (now expired - but nobody appear to have a list of these), or buy the Homeseer zwave device (made after the Levitron patent expired).

[KeviNH]

   Insteon problems:

           4.  Their range and reliability is between poor and pitiful.  With the Z-Wave modules, three of them do the needed hops to reach from one end of my system to the other (appx 120 yds).  I have tried Insteon with 4 dual-band modules and they still cannot bridge the two end points.  I have also tried the X-10 bridge module from Smarthome and it did not help.  Is there any wired device solution?  I have about decided to use an Arduino and a 2213S PLM to build my own Ethernet based repeater, but that is a lot of bother if one already exists.

      

I am one of the 20% of the country that live in a rural environment where "home" automation is more of a necessity than a luxury.  Because of that, some of my nodes are a long distance from others.  But having a working system that alerts me to a freezing problem at the well or low fuel in the propane tank is as important to me as the gas gauge on your car is to you.

Your range issues are the opposite of my experience -- Z-Wave range is pitiful, while Insteon covers everything with just a couple of dual-band devices deployed strategically.     I tracked down what circuits are on which phase of my (residential split-phase) breaker box, and chose the location of dedicated repeaters specifically to ensure I had them on each phase and each floor.

 

Perhaps there is something unusual in your home causing problems for Insteon communication?  Most likely powerline comms are affected, thus Z-Wave works fine.

 

If you have metal outlet boxes and/or metal faceplates, dual-band modules may not provide particularly good radio coverage, you might need to carefully place dedicated range extenders or my favorite for this purpose, the 2634-222 outdoor-rated appliancelinc.

[stusviews]

1. There are several choices for Insteon portable and/or tabletop remotes.

2. Z-wave is currently not capable of scenes. You will need to use programs with the ISY.

3. Same as 2, above.

 

Insteon problems

4. You either have something that is interfering with the Insteon signal or you have not verified coupling between the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. Describe in more detail the devices that you have installed and the particular difficulties that you are experiencing.

 

Info: The Z-Wave brand that reports status is Lutron, not Leviton. Other brands may also support status, but you'll have to read their specs.

[MWareman]

 

 

2. Z-wave is currently not capable of scenes. You will need to use programs with the ISY.

True for most devices. Some newer ones (like the Homeseer ones) support the 'Central Scene' command class. This is coming to ISY firmware 5.x (we are told).

 

It's not true to say 'zwave is not capable' - but more true to say 'most zwave devices are not capable'.

[stusviews]

True for most devices. Some newer ones (like the Homeseer ones) support the 'Central Scene' command class. This is coming to ISY firmware 5.x (we are told).

 

It's not true to say 'zwave is not capable' - but more true to say 'most zwave devices are not capable'.

 

Absolutely true. the OP indicated not moving to an Alpha ISY version. I should have specified that my comments apply only to ISY version 4+.

[vjk]

Info: The Z-Wave brand that reports status is Lutron, not Leviton. Other brands may also support status, but you'll have to read their specs.

 

 

 

Info: The Z-Wave brand that reports status is Lutron, not Leviton. Other brands may also support status, but you'll have to read their specs.

 

The info is incorrect:  it is, in fact, Leviton that supports instant status.  Lutron has never made any zwave devices, to my knowledge.

 

The situation with zwave instant status has not changed much since five years ago or so.  Then, we had two brands: the Leviton RF+ line and Aspire Cooper switches.  Today, we have the same plus probably DragonTech/aka Homeseer HS-WS100.  Not sure if the latter support "true" instant status (association to group 1) or just emulates it through the central scene class.

 

Leviton's RF+ switches are about 50% more expensive than commodity no-status switches, e.g. GE switches, Aspire switches are even more expensive.

 

So, if you want instant status, a Leviton VRS15-1LZ is an perhaps the only sensible option. Leviton also has a cheaper no-status line, so one has to be careful and choose the RF+ one if instant status is needed.

[stusviews]

I stand corrected. Thanks

[txNgineer]

Thanks to all for the input.  What I think I understand (please correct me if I misunderstand) from all the above is:

1. There is no tabletop remote for Z-Wave that would replace my Insteon/X-10 remotes, particularly if I want compatibility to the current ISY.
2. Ditto regarding scenes.
3. Might be possible with programs, but no input yet as to how to program it.  From what I see some form of polling loop would be required to watch for a change in the devices and set a variable appropriately to trigger the other device.  I cannot find an ISY command or action that does an "on change" trigger, so this would have to be a timed loop that runs every few seconds.
4. Others report better results on Insteon range and I am happy for them.  I think that might be worth a separate thread because it is not really an issue for what I am asking here.  Just a little comment though, while my status on this forum is Newbie my overall experience with these systems is decades long.  Before we built the new house last year, that I am striving to connect, I have had been running a very functional and capable system for 17 years. It is built solely around X-10 and Insteon.  My oldest device still in daily use is an X-10 module I bought from  BSR in 1984.  So when I mention reliability, I have hard data that goes back over 30 years.  Also, the range issue was based solely on an A/B comparison of RF linking of Insteon compared to Z-Wave using plug in modules, line of sight, and in the same receptacles.  As I said, if anyone wants to start a thread or google docs page, I would thoroughly enjoy contributing my data on RF signal intensity measurements, internal antenna construction, power line impedance and noise measurements vs distance, etc.

So, back to this thread - can anyone point me to a reasonable way to program the action I want for #3?

 

Thanks

[stusviews]

You are correct, you'll need to constantly poll the devices, not a great idea due to the traffic that'll create. The solution is to spend the extra $ on Z-Wave devices that do report status or track down the Insteon problem.

 

Although tedious, tracking down the Insteon problem will bring greater rewards due to the wealth of devices that Insteon offers plus the ability to create scenes.

[MWareman]

Today, we have the same plus probably DragonTech/aka Homeseer HS-WS100. Not sure if the latter support "true" instant status (association to group 1) or just emulates it through the central scene class.

 

Leviton's RF+ switches are about 50% more expensive than commodity no-status switches, e.g. GE switches, Aspire switches are even more expensive.

 

So, if you want instant status, a Leviton VRS15-1LZ is an perhaps the only sensible option. Leviton also has a cheaper no-status line, so one has to be careful and choose the RF+ one if instant status is needed.

The HS-WD100 (I have the dimmer version) sends status back via group 1 association. It truly is (to my knowledge) the first non-Levitron device that appears to do this well.

 

I've been using it on my ISY (4.x) that does not support 'central scene', and I'm getting instant status of on/off/dim/bright events in the console, and I can act on the in programs.

[vjk]

The HS-WD100 (I have the dimmer version) sends status back via group 1 association. It truly is (to my knowledge) the first non-Levitron device that appears to do this well.

 

I've been using it on my ISY (4.x) that does not support 'central scene', and I'm getting instant status of on/off/dim/bright events in the console, and I can act on the in programs.

Oh, cool, thanks ! I was not sure and did not want to buy just to return.  The Cooper Aspire is pretty nice but rather expensive, and I "needed" a cheap status capable in my basement.

[KeviNH]

Might be possible with programs, but no input yet as to how to program it.  From what I see some form of polling loop would be required to watch for a change in the devices and set a variable appropriately to trigger the other device.  I cannot find an ISY command or action that does an "on change" trigger, so this would have to be a timed loop that runs every few seconds.

 

Others report better results on Insteon range and I am happy for them.  I think that might be worth a separate thread because it is not really an issue for what I am asking here.  Just a little comment though, while my status on this forum is Newbie my overall experience with these systems is decades long.  Before we built the new house last year, that I am striving to connect, I have had been running a very functional and capable system for 17 years. It is built solely around X-10 and Insteon.  My oldest device still in daily use is an X-10 module I bought from  BSR in 1984.  So when I mention reliability, I have hard data that goes back over 30 years.  Also, the range issue was based solely on an A/B comparison of RF linking of Insteon compared to Z-Wave using plug in modules, line of sight, and in the same receptacles.  As I said, if anyone wants to start a thread or google docs page, I would thoroughly enjoy contributing my data on RF signal intensity measurements, internal antenna construction, power line impedance and noise measurements vs distance, etc.

Regarding #4, we are agreeing with you -- Insteon RF is not optimized for range, never was and never will be -- the RF signalling is a bandaid at best.   The primary protocol is powerline (PLC) and Insteon over PLC is routinely used for +200M runs reliably;  on a perfectly clean powerline a full mile is achievable.   If you're having trouble with PLC at a mere 100M, there is something in your environment that needs to be corrected.

 

For #3, can you explain exactly what the goal is?   You want to be able to dim one light down to an arbitrary level, and have another distant light go to the same dim level?   What is the use case?

[txNgineer]

Yes on #3 you are correct.  The use case is that our home is open plan and we would like to be able to turn either of the two fan lights on opposite ends of the Family room to a specific brightness and have the other one and dining table light mirror the behavior.  Since my first post I have figured out how to do this for a pure on-off arrangement.  However, until 5.x is released it does not look like there is any way to get a dim level into a variable without an external program.  I guess I will just settle for mirroring the on-off states and not worry about the dim levels for now.

 

The similar use case I did get working was to have two table lamps come on when a ceiling spot (over a painting) is turned on above 50% and then have them go off when the spot is turned off or dimmed below 50%.  I did this by having two programs, one that polls and queries the spot level and the lamp states.  Then it triggers a second program to do the if-then-else.  The polling loop is necessary because very few z-wave wall switches/dimmers report level changes and must be queried to get their current state.  As mentioned, I am not happy with the traffic this adds to the system but by setting the polling to once every 15 seconds I get a response on average within 8 seconds and that is perfectly fine for this situation.

 

I just looked for the HS-WD100 and found they are not available on Amazon any longer.  Any idea what they cost compared to the GE ($36) or GoControl ($29)?

 

Thanks for the input on power line range.  My new home (which I want to add into the existing Insteon/X10 system) is only 100-120M by line of sight from the nearest point where I can put an Insteon dual-band module.  However, due to the arrangement of the power system the power line distance is about 738 ft (225M).  That is because all the buildings are on a single transformer (good) but to get from the new house back to the meter, and then up the other feeder to the ISY is the 225 meters.  I have a couple of experiments ongoing to see if I can get solid reliability.

 

For my first experiment I have a 900 MHz yagi that I will use to replace the RF antenna in an Insteon module once I model and measure the impedance and other characteristics of the internal antenna.  The internal one is a simple J-pole design which is good for omnidirectional but has about 12 dB less gain than the yagi.  At the same time I am building a 7 pole high pass filter so that I can hook the power line safely to my oscilloscope and check out what kind of noise and actual signal strengths I am getting for the PLM.  {Safety note:  I am fully qualified to work with high voltage -- this can be dangerous and others should not attempt this unless they are experienced}

 

Thanks to all for your help.

[gduprey]

I have a very mixed Insteon and ZWave setup - 70+ insteon and 40+ zwave in a 3,500+sqft house and it works very well.  And while ZWave is coming along, right now I feel it's hard to beat Insteon for inwall light switches (all do reporting and double-tap reporting, all support scenes and all that is supported by the non-5/alpha firmware) and keypads (I have a mix of in-wall mounted insteon keypads and numerous units mounted in the table-top enclosures)..  

 

So I really encourage you to see about fixing the Insteon problems (I know, not what you asked/want to hear, but....)

 

Few things that come to mind:
 

1) Are you sure your house is split phase?  I had a friend who had a intractable problem and it turned out his 240 volts was acquired from 2 of the 3 phases running by his place (for some reason, the area was wired 3-phase instead of 2).  So all the split-phase Insteon stuff didn't work at all.  In fact, the slightly out of phase power (120 degrees per leg, instead of 180) made even stuff on a single leg unreliable.

 

2) I've had a few devices that were unbelievable signal suckers.  Most I was able to eventually add filterlinc's to and fix and one had to be replaced.  Worth trying to unplug anything with a compressor/motor, flourescent lights (turn them off should be enough) and the occasional arc-welder and see if things improve.  In an extreme case, you could literally unplug everything in the house and then start plugging things back in (a bad power adapter for a laptop caused another friend endless hassle -- switching power supplies have the potential to be real noise generators).

 

3) Given the run back and forth, I'd try to locate a 220V in the house and put the a X10/Insteon signal bridge there.  That would obviously shorten the distance quite a bit.  Also, if you're re-using an older bridge, you might want to try replacing it.  I've had two over the years go bad.

 

4) In my last house, someone in the neighborhood setup a grow house and the electrical noise it put on the system overwhelmed everything in the area and killed my X10 and even UPB (which uses a very powerful pulse) systems.  Had the power company out and everything.  

 

It seems most people have a single "pain point" that has to be identified and corrected.  Once they are, I've found Insteon to be as reliable as ZWave and in many cases, the power-line aspect seems to help make it even more stable.

Best of luck!!

Gerry