Range Extender vs. Access Point

[jgcharlotte]

Are they the same thing?  Several of my access points are pretty old and I've been having some comm problems the last few days.

Can I just install as many Range Extenders as I want?

[larryllix]

Dual band Insteon modules are range extenders.

I use no access points, range extenders, or active phase couplers in my system, without problems.

[jgcharlotte]

Ok, so it is the exact same as the dual band functionality, just in a separate package.  So I would assume the standard dual band devices should work fine with the wireless devices without needing range extenders?

This morning it seemed like I was having more trouble with wireless devices than dual-band.

[Brian H]

The Range Extenders replaced the discontinued Access Points and serve the same function.

You may want do do the Communications tests and see if they are reliably talking to each other and to other Dual Band modules you have in use.

 

One thing you may want to look at. If the 2443 Access Points are Hardware Revision 2.0 and above. They have the same main board in them as the failing power supplies in the below 2.0 2413S PLMs. I had two Access Points start acting very strange. Both had failing power supplies.

 

The Range Extenders are actually built on a 2457D2 LampLinc main board with the dimmer parts left out.

 

Many users now find the Range Extenders may not be needed as their Dual Band Modules make their system reliable.

[Teken]

My suggestion is if you plan on replacing the AP you might as well get some dual use out of it. Thus selecting a lamp linc or even better the on-off relay module is the better choice. This assumes you don't need a dimmer in the future because the on-off relay module incorporates the ability to select and turn off RF vs Power Line.

 

The newer RE only has one purpose and that is to bridge / couple the single split phase electrical system. Along with bridging RF to Power Line signals to the Insteon network.

 

Information Only: Currently these Insteon products have the ability to selectively turn on-off the RF vs Power Line communications.

 

- On-Off Relay Module

- Dual Relay Outlet

- In Line Ballast

- DIN Module

[jgcharlotte]

Currently these Insteon products have the ability to selectively turn on-off the RF vs Power Line communications.

 

- On-Off Relay Module

- Dual Relay Outlet

- In Line Ballast

- DIN Module

 

In what situation would you not want dual band?

[larryllix]

Every situation.

 

They repeat signals on both bands so that the signal has two ways to get there.

 

They can translate battery operated devices, that work on RF only, to powerline protocall.

 

They can take a powerline signal, transmit to another dual band device via RF, and then retransmit it onto the other electrical phase of your powerline system, in your house so devices plugged into that leg can hear the signals and talk to each other.

[jgcharlotte]

Every situation.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's why it seems odd to me that they would include the ability to disable one of the modes in some of the modules.

[larryllix]

Yeah, that's why it seems odd to me that they would include the ability to disable one of the modes in some of the modules.

When I saw that I figured it is a troubleshooting option.

 

There could be situations where there is no possible communication using that protocol between devices or one protocol fails from constant noise and it confuses the system??

[jgcharlotte]

When I saw that I figured it is a troubleshooting option.

 

There could be situations where there is no possible communication using that protocol between devices or one protocol fails from constant noise and it confuses the system??

 

Good point. . . .

[Teken]

In what situation would you not want dual band?

 

I've been told in the past the option to disable the RF portion was driven by those wanting to reduce their RF exposure. Whether or not that is indeed the case the fact both communication paths can be enabled / disabled is great. As Larry noted if used for testing / trouble shooting purposes to address communication issues.

 

It would be a great method to isolate a device using that ability. Another view is this would also essentially mimic a RF only device like Z-Wave / ZigBee. My thoughts are having both communication paths offers a more robust network vs only using just the one path whether it be RF vs Power Line.

 

From personal experience the hardware still requires more RF output and the internal antenna needs to be properly situated for the best RF reception / transmission. Anyone who has installed a dual band device in a metal JB knows the RF output is extremely low due to the limitations I noted up above.

 

Regardless, neither RF / Power Line will ever supersede the need to identify noise makers / signal suckers in the home. Whether you filter, replace, or remove them it must be done for a reliable network. I can tell you with 100% confidence dual band offers the best compromise vs RF only protocols like Z-Wave / ZigBee.

 

I've been involve in more than 400 installs over the last few years and can tell you there hasn't been a single site that didn't need some kind mesh repeater for Z-Wave / ZigBee.

 

The simple realty is in many common homes Home Automation (HA) takes planning, work, and lots of disposable income. You will be hard pressed to explain to a average home owner why they need to invest hundreds of dollars in filters. Never mind having to explain to them why their LED bulbs need to be replaced because there is a conflict with the hardware.

 

This applies to all of the common HA protocols from Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee.

 

I don't think very many people who have bought Z-Wave / ZigBee find it all too funny a lock, switch, plug, etc can't link to another device only five feet away! All three protocols still have lots of room for advancement in the RF output area never mind long distance communications and noise rejection.

 

As an aside Smartlabs in the last few years finally moved the internal antenna from the rear of the KPL device to the top of the case. Instead of using a copper wire strip they now employ a tuned coiled antenna. Unfortunately the switch lincs have not been updated to use the same coiled antenna array.

 

Information Only: The following Insteon products have increased their RF output vs older existing hardware in place now which commonly offer 100-150 feet RF open air range.

 

- Dual relay outlet: 250 feet

- HUB II: 250 feet

- Range Extender: 200 feet 

[jgcharlotte]

Thanks for the very complete dissertation. . . 

I wouldn't install this stuff for someone else for anything.  Most of us, while we don't like it, understand that these things are not 'clean' and require some work.  The average homeowner only knows that they want the light to turn on when it is supposed to.  After the initial setup with the signal sucker/noise creator huntdown, my system was extremely reliable for many months.  Then *boom*. . . problems with no apparent changes.  It happened a couple of weeks ago, then cleared up the next day.  This time it appears to be getting better, but still got up this morning to problems.  I always wait at least a day before troubleshooting these problems.  I have seen too many times that they can be transient.

[Teken]

Transient noise is indeed hard to pin point and trouble shoot. My advice is to first document the time frame in hopes of seeing a pattern. If there is a time pattern look closely to common appliances from HVAC, fridge, freezer, sump, hot water tank, exhaust fans.

 

These items normally run on cycles so that is one area to focus upon. As electronics age often times they become one of those elusive noise makers / signal suckers. ☹️

 

This applies to anything you had in the home for a long time and it doesn't matter if it's a device that is already filtered!

 

Easier said then done at a customers site is to unplug everything and sit and wait.

 

Given most homes have at least five plug in devices on the small side vs 20 plus common item for a typical home.

 

Telling someone to wait 24-72 hours and plug back just one item and rinse and repeat is extremely time consuming but does work!

 

These basic steps have guided me for more than eight years doing this sort of thing.

 

Let us know how it all turns out if you ever find out what it is.

 

P.S.

 

Don't ignore any LED bulbs no matter if it worked fine in the past! I've seen many HD Cree / Eco bulbs go bad from 30-90 days later.

 

Best case you start to see delays from pressing a switch. From worst case the entire network is dead and won't respond at all.

 

 

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The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[jgcharlotte]

Awesome, thanks for the suggestions, especially the LED's.  I've changed just about everything over to LED.  Won't let a CFL within 100 ft. of my house LOL.  I also have a number of older devices (just using the case style as the criteria), which I will be replacing.  I have a couple of older on/off modules (one is an Icon!) which I'm replacing with the new on/off outlet, and a couple of old 'access points' which I am replacing with new range extenders (I know I could just use a module instead of an RE, but this way I can't be tempted to rob it when I need a dimmer or something  )

I even ordered a phase coupler, which I should not need (and I think it's kind of a hokey device), but I've got an unused 240v breaker, so what the heck.

[larryllix]

I

 

Awesome, thanks for the suggestions, especially the LED's.  I've changed just about everything over to LED.  Won't let a CFL within 100 ft. of my house LOL.  I also have a number of older devices (just using the case style as the criteria), which I will be replacing.  I have a couple of older on/off modules (one is an Icon!) which I'm replacing with the new on/off outlet, and a couple of old 'access points' which I am replacing with new range extenders (I know I could just use a module instead of an RE, but this way I can't be tempted to rob it when I need a dimmer or something  )

I even ordered a phase coupler, which I should not need (and I think it's kind of a hokey device), but I've got an unused 240v breaker, so what the heck.

 

I use an old X10 passive phase coupler off my spare 240v breaker and tacked three duplex receptacles on the circuit, where I plug my ISY and PLM into, within inches of the passive phase coupler.

 

Trouble is, I have two more phases that need coupling, by Insteon dual-bands, coming from my inverters. That seems to work OK most of the time. It has cut my well pump off successfully, twice, with drain backups now.

[Teken]

If the service panel had lots of room using the passive coupler is fine. So long as you understand this device only repeats the (original) signal and doesn't strengthen a weak one. With respect to using a RE based solely on the makers claim it does offer the longest open air RF range.

 

But the reality is once you have confirmed proper coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test. It really doesn't matter where you place a dual band plugin device.

 

The only best practice I can ever impart to you or anyone is to try to ensure there is at least one plugin dual band device at all four corners of the home on each floor / level.

 

Doing so will ensure a strong RF to Power Line connection. Those who have installed any inline modules high in the ceiling also benefit from a stronger RF mesh.

 

 

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The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[jtara92101]

I *think* this has been established, but asking just to make sure.

 

Are Access Points (and Range Extenders) protocol-agnostic? That is, will they repeat all Insteon protocol versions?

 

I'm skeptical, since I know that V1 powerline-only devices, only repeat V1, right? But is that also true for the AP?

 

I have two 2443 V1.0 4095 2443 0801. One is dead. Since I need to repair my PLM, thought I might try to repair the dead AP as well. It does NOT have the same motherboard as the PLM. Has a large transformer, and a couple of really huge caps 470uF/50V and 1000uF 25V. There is a small electrolytic that I won't be able to read until one of the big ones is removed. Plus a couple of mylars and a disc. (Oh, maybe not a disc, it LOOKS like a disc cap, but can't quite make out the markings. I has a part number. Wonder if that's a MOV?)

 

Anyway, wonder if this is worth repairing? It it will only repeat V1, then perhaps best just not to use it. (I do still have quite a bit of V1, though.)

[Teken]

No, the AP does in fact repeat all Insteon signals. The only one that doesn't apply is the AP with the rabbit ear antenna because it operates on a different frequency.

 

 

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The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[Brian H]

The main board in the Hardware 1 Access Points. Is the same one for the 2414 series PLC, 2412 PLM and 2442 SignalLinc RF. Just different firmware and Daughter Boards.

The Developers Guide has the schematics and part numbers in it and can be downloaded.

http://cache.insteon.com/pdf/INSTEON_Developers_Guide_20070816a.pdf