Multiple Lighting Scenes

[disker]

I am thinking that this may be an issue with how the ISY handles its scenes but I may be wrong. If it isn't related to the ISY then if someone can help me do this the right way I would GREATLY appreciate it.

 

Setup:

 

Build 4.5.4

 

1 - 8 button dimmer switch controlling load

2 - paddle switches - dimming

 

What I am wanting to do is set these up to control my living room lights for normal operation and for theater level lighting. Here is how I have everything configured:

 

Scene: Living Room Main

8 button dimmer button 1 (LOAD)(Controller) ::Set for on=75% ramp rate=4.5

paddle switch 1 (Controller) ::Set for on=75% ramp rate=4.5

paddle switch 2 (Controller) ::Set for on=75% ramp rate=4.5

8 button dimmer button 2 (Responder) ::Set for on=0% ramp rate=0

 

Scene: Movie Time

8 button dimmer button 1 (LOAD)(Responder) ::Set for on=20% ramp rate=4.5

paddle switch 1 (Responder) ::Set for on=20% ramp rate=4.5

paddle switch 2 (Responder) ::Set for on=20% ramp rate=4.5

8 button dimmer button 2 (Controller) ::Set for on=100% ramp rate=0

 

Now, I assume from this that it should function to where if button 1 or either paddle button is turned on the lights go to 75%. If button 2 is on at this time then it turns off to denotate that it is not in movie mode.

If button 2 is pressed then the lights (and the indicators on the paddle switches) go to 20%.

If any one is turned off they all go off.

 

For the most part this is the case. The issue that I am having is after pressing button 2 to activate the movie scene, subsequent presses of button 1 only turn the lights on to 20%, however presses of the paddle switches to on turn the level to 75% as they are supposed to.

 

My current workaround is a program:

 

If

   Control 'Button1' is switched on

Then

   Set 'Button1' 75%

 

This works but it has a delay as the lights hit 20% then they continue on to 75%.

 

I think this is an ISY scene issue because the way the scenes are set up, this should work without the program.

 

If it isn't an ISY issue then I would appreciate some assistance to see where I have gone wrong with my configuration. If it is, then I would like to formally submit this as a bug to be fixed in the upcoming 5.x firmware.

 

I realize this is a slightly confusing description but I have tried to lay it out as best that I can. If you need clarification, please ask and I will be happy to provide it.

 

Oh: And thanks for all the wonderful information you guys have posted in my forum. It is because of this that I am able to say "It's great when your house does what you program it to!"!!!  (And, I do say that quite often!)

 

Thanks!

Kevin

 

[stusviews]

Check each individual device in each scene to ensure that a button is not setting the local On-level (Applied Locally).

[larryllix]

Welcome to the forum!

 

I am not really sure what is happenning but I will try to relate some information to inprove your ideas, maybe.

 

Scenes do not rely on ISY at all. ISY is a very good scene link manager to make it easy to set up scenes and have them download into your devices. scenes can be done the old fashion way without iSY by doing tap sequences and putting devices into linking modes.

 

If you have a scene (link between two devices) whether done with ISy's help or not, It is already sending the codes between devices. If try to compete with this process you may get the effects you disclosed.

 

I like using all programs in ISY to do things except for MS with lights where I use a scene to turn it on really fast and a program to turn it off when it gets around to it and no rush.

 

I also use scenes for every device in the house whre I would use it for a blinking house effect / alarm.

 

You situation sounds like you have a scene turning your light on and a program that tries to do it at the same tie. This may also cause some Insteon data storms to slow things down when so many commands are shoved into the tiny Intseon data tube.

Edited December 6, 2016 by larryllix

[oberkc]

Now, I assume from this that it should function to where if button 1 or either paddle button is turned on the lights go to 75%. If button 2 is on at this time then it turns off to denotate that it is not in movie mode.

For this to happen, you must select (click on) each of the controller devices within the Scene "Living Room Main" and check for the same settings as the scene:

 

8 button dimmer button 1 (LOAD)(Controller) ::Set for on=75% ramp rate=4.5

paddle switch 1 (Controller) ::Set for on=75% ramp rate=4.5

paddle switch 2 (Controller) ::Set for on=75% ramp rate=4.5

8 button dimmer button 2 (Responder) ::Set for on=0% ramp rate=0

 

For the most part this is the case. The issue that I am having is after pressing button 2 to activate the movie scene, subsequent presses of button 1 only turn the lights on to 20%, however presses of the paddle switches to on turn the level to 75% as they are supposed to.

Make sure you select the "button 2" of the "movie scene" and ensure the responder settings are consistent with the scene settings.

 

It seems to me that you have the scenes set up correctly.  No, I do not think your problems have anything to do with the way the ISY handles scenes, and I believe what you want to happen can, and should, be done with scenes only.  No programs needed.

 

The only way that I know of for the ISY to actually change scene responder levels is via a program.  Please make sure you don't have unexpected program responses to pressing of any of those buttons or paddles.  If you are unsure how to check this, let us know.

[disker]

For this to happen, you must select (click on) each of the controller devices within the Scene "Living Room Main" and check for the same settings as the scene:

 

Make sure you select the "button 2" of the "movie scene" and ensure the responder settings are consistent with the scene settings.

 

It seems to me that you have the scenes set up correctly.  No, I do not think your problems have anything to do with the way the ISY handles scenes, and I believe what you want to happen can, and should, be done with scenes only.  No programs needed.

 

The only way that I know of for the ISY to actually change scene responder levels is via a program.  Please make sure you don't have unexpected program responses to pressing of any of those buttons or paddles.  If you are unsure how to check this, let us know.

 

I forgot to mention that I had each controller in it's related scene set with the same settings.

 

I agree that this should be able to be done with scenes only. The only program that I have is the one I mentioned above to make 'button 1' work properly after the movie scene was used and the lights turned off. As I mentioned, the 2 paddle switches work fine.

 

For gits and shiggles I added one of the buttons from one of my other 8 button switches using the same config at it also worked. It seams that the only time I have issues is just using 'button 1' which is the load control button.

 

While writing this response I double checked my programs as well and verified that this was the only program that referenced this button.

 

Since the scenes are stored in the links to the switch it would seem that this may then be an Insteon issue... Hmmm...

[larryllix]

Stuffing a Wait 5 seconds into your program can help diagnose sources of trouble.

[disker]

Stuffing a Wait 5 seconds into your program can help diagnose sources of trouble.

 

My program is the band-aid that I want to remove. The program works fine. It is the scene that I have issues with. And honestly - if a solution can't be found the current setup works with the band-aid program in place - I just want to do it the right way with just the scenes. I just prefer not to have Band-Aid solutions.

[larryllix]

My program is the band-aid that I want to remove. The program works fine. It is the scene that I have issues with. And honestly - if a solution can't be found the current setup works with the band-aid program in place - I just want to do it the right way with just the scenes. I just prefer not to have Band-Aid solutions.

Your OP stated it wasn't working fine.

 

I was attempting to give you a method to help  of locate your problem.

[disker]

I kindly ask that you re-read my OP. Here is what I stated:

 

For the most part this is the case. The issue that I am having is after pressing button 2 to activate the movie scene, subsequent presses of button 1 only turn the lights on to 20%, however presses of the paddle switches to on turn the level to 75% as they are supposed to.

 

My current workaround is a program:

 

If

   Control 'Button1' is switched on

Then

   Set 'Button1' 75%

 

I stated that my program was the workaround and not the issue.

 

I do thank you for your attempt, however.

[larryllix]

I kindly ask that you re-read my OP. Here is what I stated:

 

 

 

I stated that my program was the workaround and not the issue.

 

I do thank you for your attempt, however.

This appears that your scenes are interoperating. Scenes are supposed to be individual and not interact.

 

Did you factory reset the KPL especially, and every device, before linking to ISY?

Have you factory reset the KPL, especially, but all of them, and restore each from ISY?

 

Have you checked your links in each device and used the automatic compare feature in ISY to identify messed up links?

[disker]

This appears that your scenes are interoperating. Scenes are supposed to be individual and not interact.

 

Agreed!

 

Did you factory reset the KPL especially, and every device, before linking to ISY?

Have you factory reset the KPL, especially, but all of them, and restore each from ISY?

 

I did a factory reset on it about 1 month ago attempting to fix an issue with a now dead fan-link that I used to use. After removing the fan-link I did a reset/rewrite at that time to make sure I didn't have any corrupted tables. The 2 paddle switches have not been reset but they also have not had any other additions to them since they were installed and they work perfectly. In fact, after I use either of them to turn the lights off and back on, 'button 1' works as it should until the next time I activate the movie scene.

 

I have not reset it with the current issue and while I don't think that will resolve the issue, I may try it tomorrow to see just to make sure I cover all bases. I have seen stranger things.

 

 

Have you checked your links in each device and used the automatic compare feature in ISY to identify messed up links?

 

I just did as per your suggestion. Everything came up marked [identical]. I hadn't noticed that option before - that's a good one to know about! Thanks.

 

I also forgot to mention that if I turn the scenes on or off from ISY they do exactly as they are supposed to. When controlling them this way the buttons still behave the same way. IE: If the last scene used was normal lights then 'button 1' will turn them  on properly but if the last scene used is movie then 'button 1' only does the 20% setting. I have also noticed that when 'button 1' is activating the 20% setting, the 2 paddle switches still have their indicators going up to 75% as per the scene.

 

I'll try the reset/rewrite tomorrow and see if that makes a difference and post the results. Right now it is bed time!

[larryllix]

There is something wrong with those scene involving the KPL. KPLs do some weird things with cross button from history here.

 

As an experiment, I would divorce the button LEDs from the scenes and try a program to set just the LEDs with a few second delay for the LEDs. This should separate the button push command signal from the LED signal in time, to avoid Insteon signal clashes.

 

This is providing the factory resets don't make it all go away.

 

The ALL ON I created last month, was involving a KPL using command signals to immediately send back a signal to set a KPL LED on/off. All the KPL functions are considered one device, and that can cause problems, for some reason in the Insteon protocol, when you include two different parts in one operation, apparently.

 

 I am grasping at straws here, but there must be a way to sleuth this down to the root cause or bug.

[disker]

There is something wrong with those scene involving the KPL. KPLs do some weird things with cross button from history here.

 

As an experiment, I would divorce the button LEDs from the scenes and try a program to set just the LEDs with a few second delay for the LEDs. This should separate the button push command signal from the LED signal in time, to avoid Insteon signal clashes.

 

This is providing the factory resets don't make it all go away.

 

The ALL ON I created last month, was involving a KPL using command signals to immediately send back a signal to set a KPL LED on/off. All the KPL functions are considered one device, and that can cause problems, for some reason in the Insteon protocol, when you include two different parts in one operation, apparently.

 

 I am grasping at straws here, but there must be a way to sleuth this down to the root cause or bug.

 

I'm not sure what you are talking about separating the LEDs from the scenes. I'm not controlling any LEDs on the switches, but rather light levels of the controlled lights. The LEDs on the switches are just performing their status indication as they are intended by design and are working fine. If you could perhaps clarify what you are suggesting I can perform the requested tests.

[larryllix]

I'm not sure what you are talking about separating the LEDs from the scenes. I'm not controlling any LEDs on the switches, but rather light levels of the controlled lights. The LEDs on the switches are just performing their status indication as they are intended by design and are working fine. If you could perhaps clarify what you are suggesting I can perform the requested tests.

Take the LEDS out of the scenes and use a program, with a Wait 2 seconds in it before operating another scene with the LEDS only in it.

 

I don't believe you can adjust KPL led levels in a scene, only turn them on and off.

 

I am not a scene guy or a KPL guy but I know that KPL s are weird and demand weird controls.

 

Maybe it is your button labels that confuse me but I am on mobile right now and can't view it easily.

Edited December 6, 2016 by larryllix

[zerop]

The issue that I am having is after pressing button 2 to activate the movie scene, subsequent presses of button 1 only turn the lights on to 20%, however presses of the paddle switches to on turn the level to 75% as they are supposed to.

 

If you've turned on the movie scene using button 2 as you state above wouldn't button 1 be lit up then as it is a responder in that scene?  Pressing it would turn the movie scene off along with button 1 obviously.  It seems like you are stating that after pressing button 2 to turn the movie scene on, button 1 is off and when you press it you're surprised the lights don't go to 75%.  I don't see how button 1 would be off.

Edited December 6, 2016 by zerop

[disker]

Take the LEDS out of the scenes and use a program, with a Wait 2 seconds in it before operating another scene with the LEDS only in it.

 

I don't believe you can adjust KPL led levels in a scene, only turn them on and off.

 

I am not a scene guy or a KPL guy but I know that KPL s are weird and demand weird controls.

 

Maybe it is your button labels that confuse me but I am on mobile right now and can't view it easily.

 

I'm not adjusting KPL LEDs at all. Their status indicator is the automatic function that they do normally. If you have a dimming paddle switch the LEDs of the switch move up and down to show the current light level. It is not something you can adjust or control in any way.

 

As for button labels I am just referring to their position on the 8 button switch instead of giving them names that could further confuse the description of my issue. 'button 1' is the top left button that is also tied to the load. 'button 2' is the top right button on the switch.

 

With the confusion about thinking that I am controlling the LEDs on the KPL I am thinking that I need to restate my goal and my issue. To simplify it I have tested it with just the 8 button switch in the scenes so I will use that test as my example:

 

I want to have my 8 button switch control my living room lights and set them to different levels depending on which button I press. When I press the top left button I want the lights to turn on to 75% of full brightness, When I press the top right button I want the lights to turn on to 20% of full brightness. My issue is that after pressing the top right button, the scene for the top left button will only turn the lights on to 20% until it is reset somehow. I am only using scenes to do this and I am not concerned in any way about the actual LEDs of the KPL. As a Band-Aid I wrote a program that will check to see if the top left button is pressed to turn the lights on. If it is then it sets the light's level to 75% as the scene itself should have done. This works but is only a Band-Aid and should not have to be done.

 

I hope that this makes things less confusing.

 

If you've turned on the movie scene using button 2 as you state above wouldn't button 1 be lit up then as it is a responder in that scene?  Pressing it would turn the movie scene off along with button 1 obviously.  It seems like you are stating that after pressing button 2 to turn the movie scene on, button 1 is off and when you press it you're surprised the lights don't go to 75%.  I don't see how button 1 would be off.

 

Yes, when activating the scene with 'button 2', 'button 1' is lit. This is normal operation as button 1 is the button for the 'Load' of the switch and it will always be on if the room light is turned on to any brightness. I also mentioned nothing about button 1 being turned off by pressing button 2. This is an assumption on your part. Again it is the light level of the room's light fixture that I am adjusting, not the brightness or the illumination on the KPL.

 

The scene for button 1 states turn my lights on to 75%. The scene for button 2 states to turn them on to 20%. Pressing button 1 turns the lights on to 75% and off normally with repeated presses as specified by the scene. Now, if I press button 2 the lights turn on to 20% and off normally. After activating the scene for button 2 regardless of if the lights were then turned off with button 1 or button 2, turning on the lights with button 1 ONLY turns the lights on to 20%. If I add a paddle switch in to the same scene as button 1 and use it to turn the light on, or if I reset the scene using the ISY then button 1 on the KPL will turn the lights on to 75% as intended until the button 2 is pressed again.

[zerop]

Ah, I see.  Maybe you should have written something like this then.

 

The issue that I am having is after pressing button 2 to activate the movie scene and then turning the scene off, subsequent presses of button 1 only turn the lights on to 20%, however presses of the paddle switches to on turn the level to 75% as they are supposed to.

[disker]

Ah, I see.  Maybe you should have written something like this then.

 

The issue that I am having is after pressing button 2 to activate the movie scene and then turning the scene off, subsequent presses of button 1 only turn the lights on to 20%, however presses of the paddle switches to on turn the level to 75% as they are supposed to.

 

That is exactly the issue. I do tend to get very detailed and it is in this that I can sometimes cause confusion with too much information.

 

I'll try the reset/rewrite tomorrow and see if that makes a difference and post the results. Right now it is bed time!

 

I just performed the factory reset/restore to the switch. No change in behavior. Unless anything else can be suggested I am thinking that I should probably just swap the KPL and one of the paddle switches in the room and have the paddle switch control the load and see if that works as intended. The good thing about these switches is as long as they aren't controlling the load or if they can be replaced by another load controller, they can be moved anywhere in the building!

[larryllix]

I'm not adjusting KPL LEDs at all. Their status indicator is the automatic function that they do normally. If you have a dimming paddle switch the LEDs of the switch move up and down to show the current light level. It is not something you can adjust or control in any way.

 

<snippage>

Your scene states this. Maybe just an entry error?  Maybe you have some internal connection between button1 and button2 with your usage of an 8 button KPL.

I do not have or use an 8 button KPL but the only responder portion of  my  KPL buttons are the LEDs.

 

Stu is probably the guy to fix you up on KPL stuff. He uses a lot of them.

 

Scene: Living Room Main

8 button dimmer button 1 (LOAD)(Controller) ::Set for on=75% ramp rate=4.5

paddle switch 1 (Controller) ::Set for on=75% ramp rate=4.5

paddle switch 2 (Controller) ::Set for on=75% ramp rate=4.5

8 button dimmer button 2 (Responder) ::Set for on=0% ramp rate=0

[disker]

Your scene states this. Maybe just an entry error?  Maybe you have some internal connection between button1 and button2 with your usage of an 8 button KPL.

I do not have or use an 8 button KPL but the only responder portion of  my  KPL buttons are the LEDs.

 

This does turn button 2 off when the movie scene is deactivated by using anything else attached to the normal lighting level scene. This works as intended and when removed makes no difference to the results.

 

Unless anything else can be suggested I am thinking that I should probably just swap the KPL and one of the paddle switches in the room and have the paddle switch control the load and see if that works as intended.

 

Since I had some new switches arrive today, I decided to do the swap while I had the power off for the latest additions. By doing the swap and having one of the paddle switches become the load switch, everything not only works as intended, but I'm now able (as an extra benefit that I wasn't originally seeking) to have 'button 1' and 'button 2' act as radio buttons to indicate which scene is active since 'button 1' no longer has to stay on since this switch is no longer controlling a load.

 

Again, thanks to larryllix who educated me about the link checker in the ISY software. While it didn't have any affect with this issue, it did help me resolve another issue that I was having with an unrelated room/switch where a scene would sometimes work 100% and sometimes would not. Also for the information that once the ISY is used to set up the scene, it is actually programing the scene into the actual switches involved and from that point on, they handle everything. While I knew this, it wasn't presenting itself to my frontal lobe for processing and needed to be shoehorned in there again!!!

 

I am going to contact Insteon to let them know about this and hopefully a newer revision will have a fix. Until then, Alex, I will take paddle switches for the load.. er uhm... I mean win!

 

In case you haven't guessed it, I do have a fairly complex lighting setup that keeps growing. Rest assure that if I ever do ask a question, it is usually going to be a doozy that can probably only be fixed properly by a manufacturer fix, but I still want to make sure that it isn't something I can't do on my own.

 

Thanks guys!

Kevin

[Larry C]

I've been looking in the forum for the last few day's and have not been able to find a solution to my problem,  Hopefully someone can steer me in the right direction.

 

I have 2 KPL's (I plan to install a few more around the house) I would like to have all the Button A's act as a 3 way switch and turn on a Scene when pressed and turn the Scene off when pressed again and the same with Button's B, C D, ect....

 

What is the correct way to accomplish this?

[stusviews]

Create a scene each button letter. Add all the A buttons to the A scene as controllers, B buttons to the B scene, etc. You will also need a device connected to each load that's at least a responder.

[G W]

 

 

I've been looking in the forum for the last few day's and have not been able to find a solution to my problem, Hopefully someone can steer me in the right direction.

 

I have 2 KPL's (I plan to install a few more around the house) I would like to have all the Button A's act as a 3 way switch and turn on a Scene when pressed and turn the Scene off when pressed again and the same with Button's B, C D, ect....

 

What is the correct way to accomplish this?

Yes. Each Button A is a controller in a scene that has the lights for that scene. One controller in that scene will have to control the load.

 

In the case of Buttons B to H you will have to have a switch to control the load for each set of lights.

 

I'm Gary Funk and I approved this message.

[Larry C]

I created a scene with (Light 1) (Light 2) (light 3) (Living Room Button A) and (Kitchen Button A).

 

When I push (Living Room Button A) Light's 1,2 and 3 Come on. When I push (Living Room Button A) again nothing happens.  But when I Push (Kitchen Button A) Lights 1,2 and 3 Turn off.

 

What I would like to happen is to be able to push either button A to turn the lights on or off.

 

I probably should have mentioned that in my first post.

[G W]

Yes, I understand. You need to make sure the buttons the Living Room KPL are set to Toggle. On that KPL click on the B button then on Options in the right side window.

 

I'm Gary Funk and I approved this message.