Workaround for Low Voltage Fireplace Switch

[johnlew]

Long story short I finished my basement 2 years ago and did all the lighting and sensors down there with Insteon/ISY.  Everything works great so I've finally gotten around to replacing all the switches on the upper level.

In the meantime I've added an Echo and some dots around the house to control it... thinking wouldn't it be great to turn on the fireplace from the couch in a Minnesota winter?

Well, I have a 4 gang in the living room that goes Fireplace Switch - Overhead Lighting - Outlet Power - Foyer Light.  When I went to go install the new switches today and start integrating, it turns out that the fireplace switch is just low voltage thermostat wire to the igniter in the fireplace. 

 

Is this my best workaround?

 

Install regular momentary switch in the 4 gang, install I/O Linc under the fireplace where the thermo wire terminates, terminate it into the I/O Linc then wire the I/O Linc to the igniter?  I do have an outlet under the fireplace that could be used.

 

My thinking is that then the press of the momentary would trigger the I/O Linc to toggle the fireplace on/off and would communicate status back to the ISY.  Alexa and iRule would then communicate with the ISY for remote control of the fireplace via voice or iPad.

 

Is there a better option?

[Scottmichaelj]

IOLinc like you say is best.

[TrojanHorse]

I had a similar situation, coincidentally with a fireplace in Minnesota, and wanted to use a thermostat.

 

It's maybe not exactly what you want to do, but the helpful people here give me good advice.

 

See here:

Insteon Thermostat 2441TH wiring help

 

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Euniversal-devices%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3F%2Ftopic%2F20533-Insteon-Thermostat-2441TH-wiring-help&share_tid=20533&share_fid=23986&share_type=t

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carealtor]

I'm in the exact same dilemma and have been running a few ideas through my head too.  I like your solution...  a lot!

 

How will you turn the I/O Link off?  Does it have a toggle mode?  I haven't played with mine in awhile and don't remember all the functionallity.

Edited December 21, 2016 by carealtor

[Scottmichaelj]

I'm in the exact same dilemma and have been running a few ideas through my head too. I like your solution... a lot!

 

How will you turn the I/O Link off? Does it have a toggle mode? I haven't played with mine in awhile and don't remember all the functionallity.

If you use an IOLinc direct with the low volt switch its easy to setup. There's a thread around that talks about how to do the connections.

[johnlew]

If you use an IOLinc direct with the low volt switch its easy to setup. There's a thread around that talks about how to do the connections.

Scott, any idea on where that thread is? I've got a momentary switch on order but in the meantime I'm trying to get this going with the regular switch.  My I/O Linc showed up today but this is my first time setting one up so I'm struggling with exactly how to wire it to achieve what I want.

 

I'm contemplating running Line/Neutral to the switch in the box and putting a 2477S in there with no Load on it that will just communicate directly with the I/O Linc instead of using the "dumb switch".

[Scottmichaelj]

So the switch just uses low volt cat5, security or telephone 2 wire to the fireplace to complete the loop when switched on.

 

Plug your IOLinc under the fireplace and take the connections that would go from the fireplace to the switch and put them in N/O and C on the IOLinc. Then from the switch to the fireplace use the ground and sense connections. Like this:

 

 

So the left side is from the switch and right side is from the fireplace (the leads that would go to the switch).

 

That's all there is to it. Now you can use the switch as normal to turn it on and off.

 

Now in the ISY add the IOLinc and then go into options and make it momentary with 10s delay or so. The IOLinc will have two nodes, sensor and relay.

 

 

Then for safety, in your programming you can do something like controlling the fireplace via a remote or Amazon echo directly via the relay BUT in the program say "if sensor is on" (which is the switch) then turn on relay. Otherwise if your on vacation and the switch is off the fireplace can't turn on.

 

Hope this helps. Post back if you need more help. Ill be happy to.

 

Edit: Here was the other helpful thread before it got off topic.

 

Automating a gas fireplace and fan

 

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Euniversal-devices%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3F%2Ftopic%2F17378-Automating-a-gas-fireplace-and-fan&share_tid=17378&share_fid=23986&share_type=t

Edited December 24, 2016 by Scottmichaelj

[johnlew]

I have it working (kind of).  The I/O Linc is working fine but the old mechanical switch is not.  That's okay, I assigned the control of the fireplace to a button on the keypad I have at that same box so I'll probably end up putting another Insteon Switch in place of that mechanical fireplace switch anyway.

 

Thanks again for your help!

[stusviews]

I have it working (kind of).  The I/O Linc is working fine but the old mechanical switch is not.  That's okay, I assigned the control of the fireplace to a button on the keypad I have at that same box so I'll probably end up putting another Insteon Switch in place of that mechanical fireplace switch anyway.

 

Thanks again for your help!

 

The standard switch is probably controlling low voltage. An Insteon switch requires line voltage.

[johnlew]

The standard switch is probably controlling low voltage. An Insteon switch requires line voltage.

It definitely is low voltage, sorry I wasn't clear in what I was saying - I can get Line/Neutral ran to that switch to power it and then just not connect it to a Load, correct?  Then I can program that switch to control pretty much anything.

[johnlew]

As a follow-up to that, is it safe (and to code) if I pick up the Line/Neutral from the switch next to it (this is a 4 gang)?

[stusviews]

What would you control with the Insteon switch? You can't use it to control "pretty much anything," only another Insteon device. The only low voltage switching devices are the Insteon thermostat which requires a separate power supply or the I/O Linc.

[johnlew]

The whole house (nearly) is all Insteon now that I've finally gone about getting the main level swapped out.  That's where this 4 gang w/ the fireplace switch is located.  I wired up the I/O Linc under the fireplace to the igniter and used an 8 button Insteon Keypad to control it w/ the ISY (assigned the Scene to the F button that turns the fireplace on/off via the I/O Linc).  That's what I was referring to earlier when I said I had it working (kind of).  Controlling it with the F on the KeyPad works flawlessly but the mechanical switch no longer works as wired.

Essentially, that mechanical switch that was controlling the fireplace from the low voltage wire is unnecessary now.  My thought was to repurpose that slot by grabbing the Line/Neutral from the switch next to it (that controls the overhead light only) and not connecting it to a Load.  Then I could either put a 2477S in there and just assign a single scene or another KeypadLinc and have it control various scenes, etc., around the house.  Might even put a KeypadLinc in there and have it be the "control" to a couple variable programs I want to run only under certain circumstances (ie only arm the front door Open/Close Sensor if the D key is On, etc.).

Edited December 27, 2016 by johnlew

[jtara92101]

FWIW.... Egads!

 

Did the 4-gang not have a barrier in it?

 

You aren't supposed to mix low-voltage and line-voltage in the same box!

 

But there are special boxes that have an internal barrier, or add-on boxes that link to a main box to create a separate compartment for low-voltage.

 

If you did NOT have a barrier, at least you have now corrected a code violation.

[johnlew]

Nope, no barrier, just a 4 gang box.  New construction 7 years ago.  Never even bothered to look until now.

[stusviews]

As long as you select line and neutral from the same circuit you can use an Insteon switch or keypad to control any  other Insteon device. Also, johnlew is correct. For decades the code has not allowed low voltage and line voltage to be in the same box without a barrier.

Edited December 27, 2016 by stusviews

[MWareman]

I have a First Alert relay installed in the back-box the basement smoke is on, and it has low voltage wires coming out. The smoke is a 120v one.

 

At first, the code officer thought it was an issue. I sent him the manufacturers instructions, and after some research to he code official passed it.

 

So, in general, yes. Cannot mix low and line voltage. However, as always, there are some exceptions. Just have to find a suitable device that's code compliant.

[stusviews]

It's in accordance with the code if line voltage wires are in the back (e.g., wall or ceiling box) and low voltage wwires are in the front (i.e., not in the same box).

 

Here's an example: https://smile.amazon.com/Everyday-Door-Bell-Chime-Transformer/dp/B019BW9VZ2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1482866833&sr=8-4&keywords=bell+transformer

and another: https://smile.amazon.com/NuTone-C915-Junction-Transformer-Chime/dp/B001PO2BK2/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1482866833&sr=8-9&keywords=bell+transformer

[captainc]

I have a Monnessen remote control gas log set up and use one of the low voltage contacts on my ezio sa8 and it works great.  the iolinc should do the same thing and using a button off the insteon 8 keypad labeled is perfect for everyone to use.

 

Just remember to program the flame height if yours is adjustable so you have it set for when the switch is used.

 

btw it is against code to mix low and line level voltage sources in the same box.  it may not be a problem for you but the next person fooling around with a wire could have a problem.

[johnlew]

Thanks.  I didn't mix the low and line, the builder did it (evidently).  When the new Insteon switch arrives and I swap out the mechanical, that low voltage wiring will no longer be needed.  However, I'm debating what to do with it, may just cap it off on both ends in case the next owner of the house wants to do something different.

[jtara92101]

IANAE (I Am Not an Electrician) BUT...

 

It's just common sense that in order to abandon the wire, you need to cut it and stuff it back into the wall. That wire has no business being inside the box, capped or not.

 

I hope at least it is low-voltage wiring, and not the same wiring that was used to wire your house, lest some future electrician or homeowner accidentally activate it.

 

For a a couple bucks more, the builder could have done the job right. (Gang a separate box, or install a box with internal barrier.)

[Scottmichaelj]

I love that everyone is a code enforcer and lawyers. Cap it off, label it low voltage for fireplace and tape it to the inside of the box. If you want to go back to stock or original way you found it you can. Geez guys your all making a mountain out of a mole hill!

[stusviews]

I'm a code enforcer having been in the business for more than two decades and seeing the damage and harm out-of-compliance wiring can cause. Such wiring can make a mountain into a molehill!

 

I'll admit it's not common, but neither is it worth the risk. You suggestion, nonetheless, is valid

 

Edit: my response is in relation only to Scottmichaelj's post #22.

Edited January 1, 2017 by stusviews

[jtara92101]

 I didn't mix the low and line, the builder did it (evidently).  

 

Does your state have a strong construction-defect law?

 

Since your builder made this mistake, he may have made others. The fact that an inspector passed it probably does not get the builder off the hook.

 

If you have any concerns, it might be worth-while to have an electrician inspect and see if any other issues turn up.

 

A discussion about California law:

 

http://www.lhfconstructlaw.com/Articles/Relying-On-A-Building-Inspector-s-Approval-Of-The-Work-Does-Not-Shield-The-Contractor-From-Liability.shtml

 

Now, since you've been fiddling with the wiring, maybe just let sleeping dogs lie. But I would want to satisfy myself that things are right.

[Scottmichaelj]

I'm a code enforcer having been in the business for more than two decades and seeing the damage and harm out-of-compliance wiring can cause. Such wiring can make a mountain into a molehill!

 

I'll admit it's not common, but neither is it worth the risk. You suggestion, nonetheless, is valid

 

Edit: my response is in relation only to Scottmichaelj's post #22.

Two decades? For the city? Then your also a professor/teacher? Plus IIRC you said you worked in electric utilities too like Larry. What haven't you done? Next your going to tell me your a lawyer now and that's what you tech to cover all bases? Maybe we need to investigate you job history. How old are you? Like dinosaur old?