2477D Not working 100% of the time?

[sdynak]

Hi there folks..

 

 This is a odd scenario got me pulling my hair out.. I am putting in a Insteon 3 Way using 2477D units.. There was a existing hard wired 3 way in the same locations.

 

 All devices were installed and the load switch worked fine stand alone.. I created the units in my isy994i and added them to a new scene both as controllers.. This is where things went weird

 

 From the admin console the on/off and all functions i.e. dimmer work perfectly.. The 3 way virtual switch works great.. it is powered by the same circuit the load switch is powered on and can toggle all day without a beet missed.. The issue is the load switch will not work 100% of the time.. It sometimes works fine then the next time it may take 3-4 toggles to make it work either on or off manually. 

 

I narrowed it down to once that unit is linked back to the isy is when trouble starts. I deleted all links and factory reset the switch and again works great stand alone. I even tried not only another 2477D but 2 new more in the same spot with the same exact results? Strange to me for sure..

 

I even made the non-load switch the load switch and it worked fine and is just down the same wall about 10 feet.. It seems just in that spot for some strange reason once I link it back to the isy.. Strange thing again is it is in the same circuit as the virtual switch and works fine from admin console.. Not a hint of any troubles. Only when worked manually in this one position will it seem to take a few toggles to make it work at times. 

 

 Does not seem to be a weak communications issue but something else that is in the link table or something that conflicts somehow is what I'm thinking.

 

Anyone seen anything like this or have any suggestions? Thanks in advance and Happy New Year

 

Thanks

Stan

 

 

[paulbates]

Hi Stan

 

I'm not clear on what "Linking it back to the ISY" means. When you install an insteon device on the ISY, that process installs links for the PLM/ISY at that time.  Al of the switches would have to be installed on the ISY before you could link them (via scenes) to create the 3 way.

 

What are you doing to link it back?

 

Paul

[sdynak]

Hey Paul..

 

 Sorry.. meaning by adding a selecting new insteon device or by start linking in the admin console.. I tried both ways just to see if it made a difference. Once I added the device into the isy the manual control gets flaky.

 

Thanks for taking the time!

 

Best,

Stan

[stusviews]

Try double tapping the 2477D on (and off) a few times. If that works dependably, then the ramp rate is probably set for a  long duration.

[sdynak]

Hi Stu..

 

 I tried all kinds of ramp rates also.. sometimes you could tap it 5X and nothing.. 

 

 So here is what I did and it is working:

 

 I ended up pulling all the existing connections out of this box and redoing them.. There were 6 lines coming in with one being a 3 way so it was a busy box.. I cleaned everything up and redid all of them and swapped the 2477D with a 2477DH that I had in another room (didn't need the H) and it is working normally. At this point I am going to leave it.. So it is either something sensitive to that location with a 2477D or something was just not right with the connections. It worked flawlessly from the console panel so I do feel the connections were fine and communications itself. I tried quite a bit before coming here and searching with no good results for that kind of issue. Hope it helps someone in the future.

 

Best,
Stan

[sdynak]

Well it seems that was short lived.. with the 2477DH it has gone to the same weird symptom.. 

[stusviews]

Remove the secondary switch. Does the primary switch function correctly?

[sdynak]

No.. it will only function normal if I factory reset it.. Once the association is made with the isy it starts this.. It did seem like it was fine for some time .. I added a program for auto on when a door opens and added to the ISY portal for my Echo/Dot's and tested the door and tapped the switch only to find that it was doing it again.. Very strange for sure. The second virtual switch works fine and is wired directly into this same box for its power/neutral/gd. 

[sdynak]

Just made a quick video.. first switch is the virtual.. second is the load

 

[stusviews]

Strange. Disconnect the load. Does the switch behave the same way? BTW, what is the load?

[sdynak]

So load or no load connected it was still happening .. The load is 2X retrofit hi hat LED's in my front entrance hallway.

 

 Been busy trying to sort this out but unfortunately it seems beyond just routine..

 

 Few things I did and the result:

 

 There is a basement area if you want to call it that below this main floor. I live in a home that was raised from Sandy but it is more like an above ground basement with a 12 ft ceiling height.

 

 So underneath the 3 way wiring drops out of my entrance location down below to another box where it is connected to another box about 10ft across then back up. At one time there was never in a box underneath but the entire system exposed underneath was redone during my raise project by a elect. contractor.

 

First thing I did here was put the 2nd switch (let's say the further one from the doorway) downstairs in the box directly under the 1st switch. It seemed to work on here so I moved it down to the 2nd box underneath approx 10ft. This is where it starts to act up.. I then thought the cable in between the boxes had some unknown issue although the original hardwired 3 way worked fine. I ran a temporary line between the two and put the switch upstairs where it should be in the far hallway position. It acted up unfortunately.. now I go back downstairs and connected it directly to the temporary line in the 2nd box and it acted up right there again with it in place. 

 

 So to me it seems like a distance issue or putting it in some kind of a loop here.. not sure.. strange to me.

 

So about to give up all together I swapped these with two power line only 2466s units non dimming just toggle switches that I had intended to replace with dual band. Thinking the issue was with the dimmer dual band setup for whatever reason. When I got everything together they work but with the far switch getting a delayed click & LED indicator flicker.. If you try to toggle this switch before the "final" click it will not do anything. You have to wait for it. The front switch acts normal with no delays etc.. 

 

So I usually hate when you never find a conclusion or follow up to these issues so I wanted to mention where I'm at.. 

 

My next thought is to either put Z-Wave in here (I have the board in my ISY) or possibly run another circuit to that 2nd switch further down the hall although that would be a pain as my entire underneath is fire sheet rocked and I don't have access to this exact area where it drops under only to the box where it terminates.

 

I even contacted Smart Home and they just didn't want to be bothered.. they wanted to swap or return the units.. I know they are fine. They act ok with no links created. As soon as you create the links they do this as long as both are in this same circuit. If I take one of them out of the circuit they work fine without having to factory reset them. Only when the 2nd unit is put in will it start acting like this.. That I have come to find out through testing. Remove it power wise through air gapping or disconnect it and the switch that acts up works like a charm. Power the 2nd one back up in the circuit and wham.. acts like a dummy.. 

 

I am more of the type to really understand why rather than resolve by other means. Something is just not right somewhere whether it is the design of the unit itself in this config or my environment. I have other dimmers set in the same distance or further with no issues in a very similar working setup. In fact where I swapped the 2466s units is basically identical in my stairway between floors and the units that exhibited these issues works fine there fully configured.

 

 I am starting to think I'm going crazy

 

Thanks for listening and the input.. any suggestions are most welcome if you dare..

 

Best,

Stan

[paulbates]

Stan

 

One more... have you checked the circuit itself?....With a volt meter and plug in circuit validater?

• Voltage is correct?
• Hot and neutrals not wired backwards? 
  • I had this happen, back and white were the opposite of what they should have been. The plug in testing tool proved it.

Paul

 

 

.....

Thanks for listening and the input.. any suggestions are most welcome if you dare..

 

Best,

Stan

[sdynak]

Hi Paul..

 

 Yes.. the polarity is correct.. Checked it a few times just to be sure with a meter..

 

 Here is a short vid of the new switch acting funny.. First switch is the front by doorway and second is down the hallway.. Not sure if this action is related to my original issue with the dimmer but I just have to share the madness ..

 

Best,

Stan

 

 

[Teken]

Hello Stan,

 

I'm going to keep this simple - Doing nothing else but disconnecting the load and cap it off.

 

What happens?

[paulbates]

Stan

 

Never seen anything like that.

 

My front porch light is a togglinc, and I just tried and can not replicate that behavior. Once the relay is on, any further 'on' commands do nothing, the relay is already thrown.  To 'click' a second time, makes no sense... it can't happen while its on already.

 

Teken's idea should be tried if it hasn't alread

 

Paul

[Teken]

Stan,

 

Just to clarify my ask there are two things I want to be done.

 

- Cap the load wire from the switch and report back what happens.

- Remove the LED fixtures and report back what happens.

 

What I want to know is (IF) you simply link the two switches do they both operate normally. If not this is a hardware issue or something is wrong in the electrical wiring. If the switches do operate both ways with absolutely nothing attached you can add back one (1) LED bulb.

 

Test again and let us know if it operates fine . . .

 

If so add in the second LED bulb and rinse and repeat . . .

 

As you noted no where did I say connect the actual load wire at the switch. This may on the surface sound odd because one would not expect to see anything wrong.

 

Humor me and just do so . . .

 

If adding back the two LED bulbs does not give you any issues you will remove the bulbs again. You will attach the load wire to the switch and add back just (1) LED bulb. If the problem comes back you have found the bulb is the issue. If that bulb doesn't impact the switch you can add in the second bulb and see what happens.

 

You're going to find out that either one or more bulbs are not happy in your network. Or you will find that using two of these fixtures adds enough noise to cause and issue.

 

Please follow the steps I outlined and report back . . .

[sdynak]

Stan

 

Never seen anything like that.

 

My front porch light is a togglinc, and I just tried and can not replicate that behavior. Once the relay is on, any further 'on' commands do nothing, the relay is already thrown.  To 'click' a second time, makes no sense... it can't happen while its on already.

 

Teken's idea should be tried if it hasn't alread

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul..

 

 Thanks.. Just to confirm I am not clicking it a second time.. There is a delayed click that comes from the module after it is toggled. I show it in the video.. If you don't wait for that delayed click it won't shut off for example. Once that delayed click happens in the module you can then shut it off. That is what I meant. I would not expect this to be normal behavior either. I had these switches in my 3 way stairwell and they did not do it there. 

 

Best,

Stan

[sdynak]

Stan,

 

Just to clarify my ask there are two things I want to be done.

 

- Cap the load wire from the switch and report back what happens.

- Remove the LED fixtures and report back what happens.

 

What I want to know is (IF) you simply link the two switches do they both operate normally. If not this is a hardware issue or something is wrong in the electrical wiring. If the switches do operate both ways with absolutely nothing attached you can add back one (1) LED bulb.

 

Test again and let us know if it operates fine . . .

 

If so add in the second LED bulb and rinse and repeat . . .

 

As you noted no where did I say connect the actual load wire at the switch. This may on the surface sound odd because one would not expect to see anything wrong.

 

Humor me and just do so . . .

 

If adding back the two LED bulbs does not give you any issues you will remove the bulbs again. You will attach the load wire to the switch and add back just (1) LED bulb. If the problem comes back you have found the bulb is the issue. If that bulb doesn't impact the switch you can add in the second bulb and see what happens.

 

You're going to find out that either one or more bulbs are not happy in your network. Or you will find that using two of these fixtures adds enough noise to cause and issue.

 

Please follow the steps I outlined and report back . . .

 

 Hi Teken,

 

 With the 2477D I rarely reconnected the load when testing as that made no difference. I have not tried it with the 2466s yet.. I'll give it a shot although the one with the delayed click is the non load switch.

 

The LED's are not in the picture in previous testing most of the time as it made no difference. A soon as the switches had distance from one another it acted up and only when both were connected in that same circuit. Remove power from one and it worked fine. Even with the ISY disconnected completely from power this would still occur. Only once the links were created through. I even tried to link them by device only per Smart Home's request with no controller involved and they did the same thing. Never linked to the ISY just link within themselves.. Factory reset and they were fine but obviously not linked to each other so the 3 way does not function.

 

Best,

Stan

[paulbates]

Hi Paul..

 

 Thanks.. Just to confirm I am not clicking it a second time.. There is a delayed click that comes from the module after it is toggled. I show it in the video.. If you don't wait for that delayed click it won't shut off for example. Once that delayed click happens in the module you can then shut it off. That is what I meant. I would not expect this to be normal behavior either. I had these switches in my 3 way stairwell and they did not do it there. 

 

Best,

Stan

Stan

Yep, understood.. I just couldn't explain how it was happening either..wanted to experiment

 

Paul

[sdynak]

Stan

Yep, understood.. I just couldn't explain how it was happening either..wanted to experiment

 

Paul

 

 

  .. 

[sdynak]

 Hi Teken,

 

 With the 2477D I rarely reconnected the load when testing as that made no difference. I have not tried it with the 2466s yet.. I'll give it a shot although the one with the delayed click is the non load switch.

 

The LED's are not in the picture in previous testing most of the time as it made no difference. A soon as the switches had distance from one another it acted up and only when both were connected in that same circuit. Remove power from one and it worked fine. Even with the ISY disconnected completely from power this would still occur. Only once the links were created through. I even tried to link them by device only per Smart Home's request with no controller involved and they did the same thing. Never linked to the ISY just link within themselves.. Factory reset and they were fine but obviously not linked to each other so the 3 way does not function.

 

Best,

Stan

 

Stan,

 

Just to clarify my ask there are two things I want to be done.

 

- Cap the load wire from the switch and report back what happens.

- Remove the LED fixtures and report back what happens.

 

What I want to know is (IF) you simply link the two switches do they both operate normally. If not this is a hardware issue or something is wrong in the electrical wiring. If the switches do operate both ways with absolutely nothing attached you can add back one (1) LED bulb.

 

Test again and let us know if it operates fine . . .

 

If so add in the second LED bulb and rinse and repeat . . .

 

As you noted no where did I say connect the actual load wire at the switch. This may on the surface sound odd because one would not expect to see anything wrong.

 

Humor me and just do so . . .

 

If adding back the two LED bulbs does not give you any issues you will remove the bulbs again. You will attach the load wire to the switch and add back just (1) LED bulb. If the problem comes back you have found the bulb is the issue. If that bulb doesn't impact the switch you can add in the second bulb and see what happens.

 

You're going to find out that either one or more bulbs are not happy in your network. Or you will find that using two of these fixtures adds enough noise to cause and issue.

 

Please follow the steps I outlined and report back . . .

 

 

Hi Teken..

 

 So for the 2466s I disconnected the load and the delayed click in the far switch stopped.. I then removed one light at a time and it still did it until both were removed. I then took a screw in LED bulb and removed the retrofit connector and put in a screw in LED and no more delayed click in that switch. 

 

 A little more testing and the 2466s will act ok with one of the old LED retrofit and one of another brand like it has some kind of noise suppressor in the new one. I plan to just move both out of this circuit if I leave the 2466s there so it eliminates that

 

Given what I experienced there I thought just possibly it was the culprit of the 2477D units.. So I put them back in only to have the same symptom of intermittent operation with the swapped LED's as in the 2466s tests. I put them both in the near box by the door again any they behaved fine. Once there is a device at the far end even if alone it will act up. I can only assume there is some kind of distance issue all together when this is added in. The thing I don't understand is the near switch will act up if the far switch is installed like it is using the far switch to communicate to once it is in in system. Again.. this pattern is only seen once the device links are created. If I just connect them after a factory reset they respond fine but obviously do not work together or through my ISY. I do have another 2466s in the front box that controls my porch light for a few years with no trouble in the same setup. That little bit of distance setting up the 3 way down the hall seems to just be surpassing the device capabilities is what I'm thinking or something beyond like a loop somehow. 

 

 Appreciate all your help.. 

 

Best,

Stan