How do I reduce PLM Links, I have too many

[DAlter01]

My PLM Links table has 1,640 links.  I believe I've read that it needs to be less than 900 to work reliably.  

 

At present I have some communication issues where the ISY is not reporting back the correct status of a few devices.  I'm able to reach those devices from within ISY with low hops and I have no problem reaching those devices and controlling them manually from the ISY administrative console, but they are non-responsive within a few scenes.  I suspect that my overly large link table is causing the problem.

 

What strategies are there to reduce the PLM links?  If I put a scene within a scene will that reduce the links (vs redundantly listing devices individually within two somewhat similar scenes)

 

I am using a fair number of 6 button controllers with those buttons activating large scenes (90+ devices).  I suspect a fair number of my links are coming from those controllers.  If that is the case is there a known strategy to reduce those links?

[Brian H]

If you did the PLM link database count and there was any action on the power lines. The count maybe off.  Do you get the same 1,640 every time you do a PLM database count?

 

Are you using a 2413S PLM or the older 2412S PLM?

The 2413S has a link database of 1023 entries. 1,640 would be overwriting some of the links.

The later revision 2412S PLM has a link database of >2000 but anything over 800-900 would start causing issues.

 

I have seen reports of  Restore Modem (PLM) removing links for removed devices to lower the count.

[DAlter01]

My PLM is a 2413S.  It is less than a month old.  I've converted a large 148 device existing HA system from Houselinc to ISY.  For the most part I've used the same scene architecture from Houslinc for the ISY install.  However, with the Houselinc install I was using a Hub gen 1 as my PLM. It didn't seem to have a similar issue with devices not responding to scenes so maybe it has a different link limit than a 2413S PLM.

 

I'm rerunning the device link table a couple extra times to confirm the count as I'm writing this.  However, I know I ran the count last week and I don't recall the count but it was roughly 1,500 and this morning when I ran it I had 1,640 and since I've developed the system more since that last count it is consistent.  I did the count this morning with the system quiet.  I don't think there were any scene trigger events while the count was running.  

[DAlter01]

Well, there you go, guess my system was still doing something.  It just came back with a counts of 712 twice in a row.  It sounds like I don't have a PLM database issue.  Probably a comm issue.  Would the scene size be causing the problem?  With a 90 device scene is that more than I can safely shove into one scene?

[oberkc]

Short of reducing the number of devices, the only thing i can think to do would be to reduce the number of scenes.

[oberkc]

Yes, scene size would also be a contributing factor I expect

[Teken]

 With a 90 device scene is that more than I can safely shove into one scene?

 

What exactly does this scene do that includes 90 devices?!?!

[DAlter01]

I've got four different scenes that do that.

 

1.   A 1 am in the morning sweep that goes through and turns everything off, makes sure that all my buttons are off, etc.  This is the biggest scene, probably 135+ devices.  It is triggered via ISY timer. 

2.   I have an "all interior lights on" scene that I use when the house cleaners are at the house and I want all the lights in the house on (or any other reason I want all lights on).  This scene is controlled via button on 6 button.  This one has 90+ devices.

3.   A Sleep scene that turns most interior and exterior lights off when I'm going to bed but leaves a couple of lights on that are handy in case I need to go back down the hall, to the kitchen, etc.  This scene is controlled via button on a 6 button.  This one has probably 130+ devices.

4.  A 10:30 pm most lights off scene that turns off the exterior site lighting, pool lighting, most of the interior lights, etc.  This one has 90+ devices.

 

Its a big place, lots of site lighting, lots of accent lights on wall art, etc.  The house has a ton of solar panels so running the lights in the evening doesn't cost anything. 

[Teken]

I've got four different scenes that do that.

 

1.   A 1 am in the morning sweep that goes through and turns everything off, makes sure that all my buttons are off, etc.  This is the biggest scene, probably 135+ devices.  It is triggered via ISY timer. 

2.   I have an "all interior lights on" scene that I use when the house cleaners are at the house and I want all the lights in the house on (or any other reason I want all lights on).  This scene is controlled via button on 6 button.  This one has 90+ devices.

3.   A Sleep scene that turns most interior and exterior lights off when I'm going to bed but leaves a couple of lights on that are handy in case I need to go back down the hall, to the kitchen, etc.  This scene is controlled via button on a 6 button.  This one has probably 130+ devices.

4.  A 10:30 pm most lights off scene that turns off the exterior site lighting, pool lighting, most of the interior lights, etc.  This one has 90+ devices.

 

Its a big place, lots of site lighting, lots of accent lights on wall art, etc.  The house has a ton of solar panels so running the lights in the evening doesn't cost anything. 

 

You Sir, have most definitely used and applied Insteon home automation as it was intended!

 

Bravo . . . 

[DAlter01]

Teken,

 

You think I'm overloading the communications ability of the system with that my devices firing at once?  It seems to work well except for just a couple of spotty devices that seem to be the same ones repeatedly.  

 

If I inadvertently press the wrong button and then quickly press the correct one it does get all confused with the scene not being correct.  I have to wait 20-30 seconds and start over on the big scenes if I do an inadvertent double tap.  In essence, it seems that it has to go through and fire off all the devices and then check their status.  If I don't give it time to go through this "process" it will not get the scene correct after doing an inadvertent double tap.  

 

Those problem devices might be affected by noise, etc. but I would think I have a pretty strong mesh network at this point as most of the devices are dual band.  I haven't yet started the noise elimination/signal sucker process.  I wasn't having this issue when I was using Houselinc with the HUB as a PLM so I was thinking my issue wasn't a signal issue and was likely a hardware (PLM) or programming problem.  

[Teken]

Teken,

 

You think I'm overloading the communications ability of the system with that my devices firing at once?  It seems to work well except for just a couple of spotty devices that seem to be the same ones repeatedly.  

 

If I inadvertently press the wrong button and then quickly press the correct one it does get all confused with the scene not being correct.  I have to wait 20-30 seconds and start over on the big scenes if I do an inadvertent double tap.  In essence, it seems that it has to go through and fire off all the devices and then check their status.  If I don't give it time to go through this "process" it will not get the scene correct after doing an inadvertent double tap.  

 

Those problem devices might be affected by noise, etc. but I would think I have a pretty strong mesh network at this point as most of the devices are dual band.  I haven't yet started the noise elimination/signal sucker process.  I wasn't having this issue when I was using Houselinc with the HUB as a PLM so I was thinking my issue wasn't a signal issue and was likely a hardware (PLM) or programming problem.  

 

From a technical stand point no . . . From a real world use and application stand point more than likely. You have to keep in mind from a true home automation perspective power line / RF communications is consumer solution. It is not in any way considered a prosumer / commercial solution for those serious about control and management.

 

Serious is defined as 100% communications, reliability, and using low / high voltage hard line.

 

Every home has some kind of noise maker / signal sucker in the home that's just the natural evils of electronics, motors, etc. Generally speaking almost everything in your home ages and when it does often times injected noise is the end result. If you haven't placed the most common appliances on a filter please consider doing so. The invested time, effort, and resources can not be over stated as it relates to a positive outcome.

 

I've seen million dollar homes ignoring this basic fact because they just accepted the technology is *Supposed* work around these issues.

 

They don't . . .

 

This is why the basics are always important to follow:

 

1. Confirmation of bridging / coupling of the single split phase electrical system via the 4 tap beacon test.

2. Filtering all noise makers / signal suckers - removing, replacing anything that can't be filtered.

3. Distribution: Having at least one plugin dual band device on each corner of the home on all levels, floors, zones.

4. Hard resetting all devices to a OEM state prior to installing and enrolling to the Insteon network.

5. Always use linked scenes when possible and only use programs for conditional logic.

6. Avoid close loop programming, blinking, beeper, applications.

7. Adhere to the minimum / maximum rating of each hardware device and the supported loads.

8. Never use a dimmer on a outlet, motor, or anything not rated to do so.

9. Always employ a three layered approach in terms of surge protection throughout the home.

10. Insurance: Always update your home owners insurance to cover these out of band technologies.

[DAlter01]

Ok, thanks.

 

I'll keep plugging away with it and see if I can get closer to that 100% reliability goal.  I was pretty much there with Houselinc and am pretty close now with just a few more issues that need to be cleaned up here and there.  Houselinc had its flaws, most of which could be worked around.  Getting rid of it sure has caused me, and I'm sure a lot of others, a lot of work....

 

The only issue I was having with Houselinc was a random device turning on in the middle of the night for no apparent reason.  I suppose that should tell me I have a noise issue lurking out there somewhere...

[stusviews]

I had a Dine Out scene with more than 60 devices that turned a bunch of primary and secondary devices off (and a few on). I now use a program that uses about 20 statements to turn off scenes that include both the primary and secondary devices. It really doesn't matter that the scenes are turned off sequentially instead of device being turned off concurrently.

 

I'll be doing that with other large scenes that only turn off devices.

[DAlter01]

Did you find that programs provide for a more reliable outcome of device performance vs scenes?

[stusviews]

The programs control scenes. The scenes include primary and secondary devices, so I was able to reduce the numbers of links by controlling scenes instead of individual devices. The reliability is the the same--solid. If you have communication problems, then that is apart from using programs versus scenes and should be approached separately.

[DAlter01]

Makes sense, I can see how it would reduce links.

 

Thanks

[stusviews]

The scenes already exist. Each responder in the "All" scene creates one link, each controller creates two. So the net gain is all the links in the "All" scene. The program runs the scenes really quickly, there is no delay between scenes turning off.