Keypad button Light Status

[Michaelv]

I have posted a few requests for Help in the forum to try to get my KPL's status to match the device condition of a scene or an individual device. ( See "Keypad buttons status to match device conditions") I got a lot of great responses, some of which were way over my comprehension at this point, but the fact is, I dread all that programming. Right now, I have about

12 Key pads, many that control multiple lighting scenes, I intend to install at least another dozen. That s 24 keypad times 8 buttons! I can't bear to commit that much time to programming all thoses buttons!!

 

Here is the request: Is it not possible for the guys at UDI to come up with a utility that would look at a particular button and update the status automatically, wheather it be a complex scene or a single device? There has got to be an easier way, Please??

[MikeB]

Hey Michael -

 

The main problem is the functionality you want does not exist within the Insteon devices themselves. The other problem is that everyone has different wants and needs as far as KPL status buttons go, so one size simply does not fit all in this case.

 

I sympathize with you feeling overwhelmed at this point, but I can assure you that once you get the hang of it it's not as bad as it might seem.

 

People on this forum are very patient and very helpful. I think you'll find that if you take the time to post a question and provide all the details you'll get a good and complete response. I think once you implement a couple of your status buttons you'll find it's not nearly as difficult as you initially thought.

 

Do you have a particular issue right now that you need help with?

[gregoryx]

MV,

 

I had the same thought... then took it a thought further: how would it work? how would I configure it?

 

I think the simplest thing I could think of would involve two groups: one group of "things monitored"; and another group of "things to signal the state on"; they'd be tied to each other; and the status lights would also be controllers.

 

It seems to me like the highest effort (for the user) in configuring this system would be putting all the devices in the two groups.

 

It turns out, that's basically true now.

 

Here's how it works:

- one "status" group - all status lights as responders - the ISY is the only controller;

- one "controlled" group -this can have any controllers you want - all, none, some... and can include the status buttons if you want;

- one program monitoring all the "controlled" devices for "or" status (any "on" is a trigger)

 

 

A simple example:

- Status group: '-Status.Up.Bath.Lights'

only one status light in this group: 'Up.Land.Key.C'

 

- control group: '*Up.Bath.Lights'

'Up.Bath'

'Up.Bath.Bath'

'Up.Bath.Sinks'

'Up.Land.Key.C'

 

If
       Status  'Up.Bath' is not Off
    Or Status  'Up.Bath.Bath' is not Off
    Or Status  'Up.Bath.Sinks' is not Off

Then
       Set Scene '-Status.Up.Bath.Lights' On

Else
       Set Scene '-Status.Up.Bath.Lights' Off

 

I have this working with 10 status groups so far with as many as 14 status lights in a group and as many as 16 monitored control lights.

 

It's not much more work thon any custom UDI work would do.

[Michaelv]

Hi Mike B,

 

First, I will say all of the people that I have come into contact on this forum have been kind, patient and really, very helpful, not to mention they respond very quickly! I do feel like part of a community. AS for the UDI, Tech support Guys, since my first Packard-bell computer back in the early nineties, I have never had such wonderful tech support. They really do go above and beyond. Second to none.

 

Let me take you up on your offer as the week end is coming up and that is when I spend most of my free time trying to get programming to work. I will give you the key pads and the devices in one room as well as the other keypads that control the devices in that room. If you can show me how to program these, I will be forever grateful.

 

Here it goes.

 

The Room I call Room 118. It has the following Switch-link Dimmers installed(SLD):

 

Main Lights

4-Spot lights

Glass Cabinet lights

Under cabinet lights

Window seat lights

 

I have one 8 button keypad in the room. Here is what the buttons control:

 

A: 118 Bar spots ( Load)

B: Under Cabinet Lights

C: Glass Cabinet Lights

D: 4-Spot lights

E: Main Lights

F: Window Seat Lights

G: MOVIE MODE

F: Not Used (Future Programming)

 

(Note: G Button dims all lights on the above keypad via a scene to 0 % over a one minute ramp with the exception of the Under cabinet lights which are set to 30% (MOVIE MODE)

 

I also have an 8 Button Keypad just out side Room 118. Here is what it controls:

 

A: Main lights ( not the Load)

B: Dim All (All lights in room 118 dim to 30%)

C: MOVIE MODE

D: All off Room 118 (Non Toggle /All off)

E: Foyer Scene (not in room 118)

F: Not Used (Future Programming)

G: Not Used (Future Programming)

 

F: Not Used (Future Programming)

 

(Note: C Button dims all lights on the above keypad via a scene to 0 % over a one minute ramp with the exception of the Under cabinet lights which are set to 30% (MOVIE MODE) The same function as Button G in the Room 118 keypad but has an identical scene written just for it.

 

 

I also have and IR linc in the room which controls all of the SLD’s.There is an individual IR code for each switch link dimmer. I leaned the codes from the credit card remote into my universal remote. These codes have been learned into the ISY and are in separate scenes as controllers. I have also written a MOVIE MODE scene identical to buttons G and C controlled by one of the learned Credit card remote codes.

 

Lastly, I have an 8 button Keypad in my master bed Room. Button H, I call “ Good Night†This button will turn off all lights in the house with the exception a few overnight scenes. None of these devices in room 118 are involved in the overnight scenes.

 

At this point in time, all of the programming I have done works fine. I have written scenes for every keypad button I have documented. I do not have any Keypad buttons being controlled by other Keypad Buttons unless I needed to control I primary Keypad button, such as Button A in room 118, 118 bar spots.

 

I would have liked to created the movie mode scene once on one keypad button and had it controlled by the another keypad button as well as the remote control, but I could not get it to work so I wrote duplicate scenes every time I wanted to control that scene.

 

I generally created my scenes with one controller in the scene, and everything else as a responder.

 

If you can show me how to write the scenes and the programs to keep all of these buttons status’ updated, again I will be forever greatful. Hopefully, I will be able to tackle the rest of the programming of similar situations in the rest of my home by myself.

 

I will send you a screen shot of my administrative console showing some of what I have documented, for what it is worth. It is my guess that perhaps I did not set up some of my scenes, with respect to responder vs controllers optimally, but when you are first starting out with all this, you stick with what works for you as you plod through it. I am open to redoing this programming so I do not preclude my self from reaching more advanced programming options down the road.

 

 

Thanks Again

 

MV

[gregoryx]

MV,

 

(I can see that you're looking for MikeB to respond, so feel free to ignore this post if you prefer.)

 

I'm missing exactly what you'd like your "status" to look like.

 

Perhaps you could describe in terms of "I'd like this status button (or these status buttons) to reflect the status of these lights".

 

Then please describe "I want the status light to be ON only if all lights in the group remain at 30%, but to go OFF if they are at any other level"; or "I want the status light to be ON only if ALL lights in the group are on, but OFF if ANY of the lights are off". This is particularly important with your KPL outside Room 118 since B and C could be interpreted however you prefer.

 

Many things are possible; but I can only guess what you want from your description.

 

 

Let's start with Main Lights, KPL1-E, and KPL2-A, just in case that's not working right yet: put all three in one group, make all three controllers. Am I accurate that you do NOT have a group like this now? or you already have that done and working?

 

That method should take care of KPL1-B, -C, -D, and -E and KPL2-A for basic cases.

 

For the IR-control, can you make those IR codes controllers in the same scenes? (I don't use IR, so I don't know).

 

 

Now let's do KPL1-G and KPL2-C (Movie Mode):

Scene MOVIE MODE:

• Level C/R Device
  ==================
  0% R Main Lights
  0% R 4-Spot lights
  0% R Glass Cabinet lights
  30% R Under cabinet lights
  0% R Window seat lights
  100% C KPL1-G
  100% C KPL2-C
  X% C IR control

 

Is there any reason this will not meet your initial needs? This brings KPL1-G and KPL2-C into sync when either of them or the IR control is used. If this meets your expectations, then when you say what you want KPL1-G and KPL2-C to do when any light changes, we can tackle that next.

[Michaelv]

Hi gregoryx,

 

I welcome the help of anyone and everyone. I just addressed it to MikeB as he said " Do you have a particular issue right now that you need help with?" and he has been very helpful with other issues I have had. I do appreciate your input.

 

As far as what I want the keypad buttons to reflect, with a single device, If it is on, I want the keypad button(s) to be illuminated, if it is off, I want the button(s) to be dark. As far as a scene goes, If the status of the scene or program is as I have written, the button(s) should be illuminated. If for any reason, any status of the lights is different from the written scene or program, the button(s) should be dark. I think if I keep the logic simple, I won't get into trouble. Does that sound like a good I dea? The mere fact that you ask me what do I want the status buttons to reflect makes me wonder is there any other school of thought as to button status. I am all ears.

 

Thanks gregoryx

[Michaelv]

MV,

 

 

Let's start with Main Lights, KPL1-E, and KPL2-A, just in case that's not working right yet: put all three in one group, make all three controllers. Am I accurate that you do NOT have a group like this now? or you already have that done and working?

 

That method should take care of KPL1-B, -C, -D, and -E and KPL2-A for basic cases.

 

Hi gregoryx,

 

I tried creating the scene as you suggested. I was able to put the main SWD in the scene bu when I tried to add the KPL1-E and KPL2-A in the same scene, I got the message that said" KP A o/s Rm 118 A is already a contoller for KP o/s Rm 118 A, would you like to make it a responder? Same this with Button E. I answered no and nothing happened. What am I doing wrong?

 

MV

[gregoryx]

You're on the right track. You need to eliminate the multiple scenes you have for controlling the same device and aggregate into one. Delete the scenes they are controllers in and try again.

 

 

Regarding how a status light should / might work, the single-load stuff is pretty straightforward, but the multiple-load stuff can be argued different ways. I agree with your approach: the light should only be on if the states of all the controlled / status-ed devices are exactly as they should be when the scene is triggered.

 

The setup you're working on now will work simply and reliably: all devices in the group as controllers and you're on the right track for single load with multiple control points staying in sync.

 

For multiple loads with variable control points and multiple status lights, I use the "code" shown above. FTR, MikeB does his a little differently and thus has a different definition of the meaning of a "status light" than I do. In the interest of less potential PLC traffic, he doesn't change state of the light as much as I do.

 

But that's another story...

 

I'd recommend getting the single / simple stuff working first - partly to see that it's a lot simpler than it appears in the way you've done it thus far.

[MikeB]

Hey Michael -

 

Let's start with the basics. First off, having multiple scenes doing the same thing only with different controllers will only complicate things many times over. What issue were you having trying to create a single scene? In my opinion, that should be your 1st goal.

 

So, let's start with your MOVIE scene. If I'm understanding correctly, you should create a single scene containing all your responders. Then added in each of your controllers - 2 KPL buttons for now. Make sure to add them in as controllers. Please test the scene and make sure it operates correctly. Controlling via either KPL controller should turn the scene on/off and both KPL buttons should be in sync. Once the controllers are in the scene, make sure to click on each controller and set your on levels and ramp rates accordingly.

 

Then I would add in the IRLinc code as a controller, click on all your controllers and double-check/adjust your on levels and ramp rates when the scene is controlled. Then test the scene via IR and make sure your KLP buttons and lights react as you expect them to.

 

If they don't work as expected, please post back and let's resolve this issue first.

 

Then we need to handle your status button. Do you want those status buttons to turn OFF if one of the lights is controlled manually? If so, how do we know to turn those status buttons OFF if one of the lights is controlled manually?

 

First, I would create a scene called MOVIE_STATUS (or whatever) which contains your KPL MOVIE MODE buttons only, as RESPONDERS.

 

Then I would create a program as follows (and please adjust to your specific needs):

 

If
       Status  'KPL_Inside_G' is not Off
   And (
            Status  'Under_Cabinet_Lights' is not 30%
         Or Status  '118_Bar_Spots' is not OFF
         Or Status  'Glass_Cabinet_Lights' is not OFF
         Or Status  '4-Spot_Lights' is not OFF
         Or Status  'Main_Lights' is not OFF
         Or Status  'Window_Seat_Lights' is not OFF
       )

Then
       Wait 2 Seconds
       Set Scene 'MOVIE_STATUS' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

Note that I'm only checking the status of ONE of your MOVIE MODE buttons in the above program. Since they should both be in sync, it should not matter which one we check.

 

Please let me know how you make out with this.

[Michaelv]

OK, deleted individual scenes for keypad buttons and have created one movie mode scene. Added Buttons C and G from the different Key pads. They do work and the status does stay in sync. However, Button A on Keypad in Room 118 (which controls a load,118 bar spots, and is a part of the movie mode scene, comes on when I push the G button to activate the movie mode scene. All the lights respond as programmed with the exception of Button A, (118 bar spots) it stays on at the level it was last set to. The program runs as programmed when activated by Button C which is on the Keypad outside room 118. 118 Bar spots do not stay on. I tried to see if there is any other relationship between Button A and Button G but I cannot seem to find one.

 

I have not tried to integrate the IR code as yet,nor step two with the status programming, I want to get this 1st step working first.

 

MV

[Sub-Routine]

All the lights respond as programmed with the exception of Button A, (118 bar spots) it stays on at the level it was last set to.

 

Depending on the KPL version it may be necessary to set the load to 1% rather than Off when using another button on the same KPL to control it.

 

Rand

[Michaelv]

Version .2D I will try setting it to 1%

[Michaelv]

OK, That solved it, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of trying to get the button status to be in sync? Even though the light is not giving of any light, the button status is showing as on.

[MikeB]

I can confirm this is happening here as well on a KPL v.2C (labeled v1.65).

 

I took a scene that has the KPL secondary button as a controller of the scene, which also contains the KPL load as a responder. I set the ON LEVEL of the KPL load responder to 0. When I press the KPL secondary to activate the scene, the load goes to it's default on level instead of the scene on level of 0.

 

My understanding is that KPL v1.5 and higher should not work this way, so I'm not sure if this is an ISY or KPL issue.

 

Can anyone else confirm?

[MikeB]

OK, That solved it, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of trying to get the button status to be in sync? Even though the light is not giving of any light, the button status is showing as on.

 

Correct. Let's wait to hear back before going any further, and I will do more testing on my end.

[Sub-Routine]

I can confirm this is happening here as well on a KPL v.2C (labeled v1.65).

 

I took a scene that has the KPL secondary button as a controller of the scene, which also contains the KPL load as a responder. I set the ON LEVEL of the KPL load responder to 0. When I press the KPL secondary to activate the scene, the load goes to it's default on level instead of the scene on level of 0.

 

My understanding is that KPL v1.5 and higher should not work this way, so I'm not sure if this is an ISY or KPL issue.

 

Can anyone else confirm?

 

That is a hardware issue. There is nothing the ISY can change about it.

 

A program could be used to switch the load off and from a 1% level the only delay would appear in turning off button A. But we don't want to lead Michaelv down that path just yet, do we?

 

Rand

[Michaelv]

Whether or not we get this 1% or 0% thing resloved, I have notice something. I created the scene to monitor the status to movie mode and it worked. I then turned on my room 118 Main lights to 40 % and I watch with delight my G button go dark before my very eyes! I then turned off the Room 118 main lights off. As I watched the G button expecting it to illuminate again, I realized that I probably need to write a program to cover that base, Correct?

[Michaelv]

You're on the right track. You need to eliminate the multiple scenes you have for controlling the same device and aggregate into one. Delete the scenes they are controllers in and try again.

 

 

Hello gregoryx,

 

I got the Room 118 main light scene working. Thank you! As you suggested, I will start with the simple stuff then post my progress later and hopefully we can go on to some more advanced stuff. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the rule of thumb here with the simple stuff is, If a SWD is controlled by a KPL, You must make a scene for that situation and both must be added to the scene as controllers. This is the starting point ,yes?

 

Thanks Again!

 

MV

[MikeB]

That is a hardware issue. There is nothing the ISY can change about it.

 

Hey Rand -

 

Thanks, I'm sure you're right. I know KPL v1.5 and higher allow a secondary to have a custom on leve/ramp rate for the load in a scene, I just assumed it could also turn the load OFF when the scene was ON. Guess not!

 

If this is a must, I think you have 2 options. Like Rand said, you could write a program that "fixes" the button. Maybe do something like this:

 

 If 
           Status  '118_Bar_Spots' is 1% 

Then 
       Wait 1 Second
       Set '118_Bar_Spots' Off

Else 
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') 

 

 

Kind of a hack, but it should work fine for you.

 

The other option would be to take those bar spots off the KPL's load and maybe control them via an InlineLinc instead if you have room somewhere (if not at the switch maybe at the fixture location).

 

 

Whether or not we get this 1% or 0% thing resloved, I have notice something. I created the scene to monitor the status to movie mode and it worked. I then turned on my room 118 Main lights to 40 % and I watch with delight my G button go dark before my very eyes! I then turned off the Room 118 main lights off. As I watched the G button expecting it to illuminate again, I realized that I probably need to write a program to cover that base, Correct?

 

Yes, if that's something you want to account for. I know in my home I don't bother. If we change the lights but want to set the lighting back to the 'movie' scene, we simply hit the movie button again, which re-activates the LED.

[Michaelv]

Ok Boys, I have Drank the Kool-aid and Have “scene†the light. Scenes with all devices as controllers is the way to go to keep keypad buttons updated. I Spent the better part of yesterday and this morning making all the changes. 14 Keypads in all. I have only done the simple ones. (One Device, one or more controllers) Here is what I need now, and I may have already asked this question, but with the old understanding. How do I update the status of the KPL when a program turns them on of off? I am still a little unclear as the best way to resolve my Movie mode Status situation but I think Mike B has given me a work around.

 

Thanks for all the help so far. Keep watching.

 

MV

[MikeB]

How do I update the status of the KPL when a program turns them on of off?

 

Hey Michael -

 

Not sure I understand what you're asking. The movie status program you wrote should turn the status button off no matter how the lights are changed, whether by physical switch press or via ISY programs.

[Michaelv]

I think the Movie mode scenario has a few twists to it. A) we have the 1%-0% work around, and I have yet to add the remote code as a contoller to it so I am leaving that lay until I get the more straight forward stuff completed. In general, how would I update keypad status in this situation. I have a general program that turms off all " unnecessary" ligths at 12:01 am. My guess would be , put all those KPL's in a scene as responders and in that in the program, the last"then" line would se to set all the KLP's to off. Something tells me you are going to tell me there is a better way.

 

I am all ears.

 

MV

[gregoryx]

...How do I update the status of the KPL when a program turns them on of off? I am still a little unclear as the best way to resolve my Movie mode Status situation but I think Mike B has given me a work around.

 

On the first question, have the programs control the scenes, not the devices.

 

On the second one, go back to my post earlier:

Here's how it works:

- one "status" group - all status lights as responders - the ISY is the only controller;

- one "controlled" group -this can have any controllers you want - all, none, some... and can include the status buttons if you want;

- one program monitoring all the "controlled" devices for "or" status (any "on" is a trigger)

 

 

A simple example:

- Status group: '-Status.Up.Bath.Lights'

only one status light in this group: 'Up.Land.Key.C'

 

- control group: '*Up.Bath.Lights'

'Up.Bath'

'Up.Bath.Bath'

'Up.Bath.Sinks'

'Up.Land.Key.C'

 

If
       Status  'Up.Bath' is not Off
    Or Status  'Up.Bath.Bath' is not Off
    Or Status  'Up.Bath.Sinks' is not Off

Then
       Set Scene '-Status.Up.Bath.Lights' On

Else
       Set Scene '-Status.Up.Bath.Lights' Off

 

I have this working with 10 status groups so far with as many as 14 status lights in a group and as many as 16 monitored control lights.

 

Basically, if you take MikeB's example and remove the first line then add the ELSE statement, it works. FTR (on MikeB's advice), I use a WAIT of a few seconds before triggering either statement just to keep noise down.

[MikeB]

I have a general program that turms off all " unnecessary" ligths at 12:01 am. My guess would be , put all those KPL's in a scene as responders and in that in the program, the last"then" line would se to set all the KLP's to off. Something tells me you are going to tell me there is a better way.

 

Like Gregory said, whenever possible turn off entire scenes with your program. Then, for your status lights like the Movie button, your status light program will automatically turn the status button off.