Compatible LED strip lights

[Tim Wilson]

I'm planning to replace the undercabinet lights in my kitchen and add some lights above the cabinets too. Currently I have some 13-yr-old Kitchler halogen undercabinet lights, though about half of them don't work any more. Those halogen lights are direct-wired with Romex going into a box installed under the cabinet that connects to the lights themselves. I have outlets installed above the cabinets that all connect to a single switch. See the attachment for a photo/diagram.

 

Does anyone have a suggestion to a high-quality LED strip light that works well with a 2477D Insteon dimmer (or alternative Insteon device)? I'll also need to come up with a method to work with the direct-wire connection under the cabinets and the standard outlets above the cabinets.

 

Any advice is welcome. Thanks.

[larryllix]

Most of the strip lights come with a regulated power supply so you can vary the dimmer up ad down but they remain constant until going off.

 

RGBWW strips are typically controlled by a controller, that takes WiFi, iR, or BT to control the light levels. WiFi is the easiest as you can use ISY NRs to control them directly.

 

There are many threads on this here but there is a current one in  progress right now. Look for it.

[Tim Wilson]

Thanks. Here's a link to the thread where this topic is being discussed.

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/21693-looking-for-rgb-controller-that-i-can-integrate/?hl=rgbww&do=findComment&comment=211461

[jtara92101]

I would first decide if you want RGB, RGBWW, or just W. For a kitchen, I prefer just W, and with a very high CRI (color rendering index).

 

You can get architectural dimming (1%) with an Insteon 0-10V ballast dimmer. And they are on sale!

 

    http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2475da2-0-10vdc-ballast-dimmer-dual-band.html

 

They call them "fluorescent", but that is a red herring. They just provide a 0-10V control signal. You don't run the lights directly on the 0-10V signal. The output wires to any 0-10V driver. (It's the real "dimmer").

 

Edit: I removed the Google shopping link for 0-10V LED drivers. Too many irrelevant results.

 

Here are a couple of articles putting 0-10V LED dimming in context. And you do have to put it in context, or it will be very confusing! There is a history to it with dimming fluorescents.

 

http://www.ledsupply.com/blog/low-cost-0-to-10v-dimming-solution/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0-10_V_lighting_control

 

For the best result, you need to be sure that the driver you choose is one that varies current, not one that does PWM dimming.

[Tim Wilson]

You can get architectural dimming (1%) with an Insteon 0-10V ballast dimmer. And they are on sale!

 

    http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2475da2-0-10vdc-ballast-dimmer-dual-band.html

 

They call them "fluorescent", but that is a red herring. They just provide a 0-10V control signal. You don't run the lights directly on the 0-10V signal. The output wires to any 0-10V driver. (It's the real "dimmer").

 

 

So if you look at the photo I attached above, you can see that I have a outlet above each cabinet connected to a single switch on the backsplash. Assuming that I put an LED strip above each bank of cabinets each plugged in to the outlet, where would I put the ballast dimmer? Wouldn't replacing the wall switch with an Insteon 2477D dimmer achieve a similar dimming response? If I read your reply correctly, and the articles you linked to, it sounds like the ballast dimmer would provide a wider range of dimming.

 

Have I got it right?

[larryllix]

No.

 

Many dimmable fluorescent strips have a 0-10v input and Insteon has a module that support that with a 0-10vdc output.

[Tim Wilson]

So the best option in this situation would be the 2477D standard Insteon dimmer?

[larryllix]

So the best option in this situation would be the 2477D standard Insteon dimmer?

No.

Insteon dimmers can't usually dim regular fluorescent tubes or LV LED strips. You may find some newer LED tubes that can be dimmed. Costco and HD has some at much better prices now.

[Tim Wilson]

Hmmm… so can you set a specific dim level using the LEDenet controller you referenced in that other thread? I doubt that I'd want any of the strips to be on full brightness.

[larryllix]

Hmmm… so can you set a specific dim level using the LEDenet controller you referenced in that other thread? I doubt that I'd want any of the strips to be on full brightness.

Yup, I can set 1% and see a slight glow.

 

I found the RGBWW a very nice white. Good for working in my kitchen and yet not too cold for a TV watching room.

 

Scott wanted the CW for his, but after my first RGBWW strip I tore the old RGBW units out. The white always looked very purple in my kitchen above the cabinets.

 

Scott got the four colour LEDs as he thought the spaces would be noticeable. Mine are RGB LED and White LED alternating. Above a cabinet no gaps can be seen against the wall. I have discovered the obvious. If your LEDs do not shine on anything they cannot be seen. I have some Hue bulbs in pot light fixture in the ceiling and the colour is not very obvious uness the whole room is the same colour. Lamps against the wall show dramatic colour.

 

IIRC The ratings are

IP65 = bare LED PCB. Not recommended if you ever have to wipe dirt off.

IP66 = expoxy/silicone encapsulated PCB.

IP67 = silcone tube encased (like a square garden hose)

 

Be careful ordering from the Chinese. Ratings may not support the photos you see. There are many translation errors, intentional or not.

[Tim Wilson]

That's great news. I'm going to take the plunge. I'm assuming that I could install a 2477S Insteon switch to allow local on/off control as well as programmability from the ISY.

[larryllix]

That's great news. I'm going to take the plunge. I'm assuming that I could install a 2477S Insteon switch to allow local on/off control as well as programmability from the ISY.

You won't need one.

If I ever got a light stuck on I just load the free mobile app Magichouse and I can control it from there. I think it happenned once at the beginning a few yers ago.

 

I recommend you download the app anyway to see what it does. No controllers are needed to see the screens.

 

Also, for hanging them upside down under cabinets, don't get sucked into the sticky tape ones. As soon as they get warm they fall off. Get the silicone two screw clamps or in the other thread pics of a metal retaining strip are posted.

 

I have run a test with an RGBW with a 12v 2A power supply just fine but I think that is pushing it once you fire up all four channels 100%. I would stick with 4-5 ampere units despite their lump in the cord aspect. Look for two prong plugs. I tore my ground pins off to make them work. The case is plastic anyway.

[larryllix]

If you have a radial point for two strips you could probably get one 12 6A power supply and wire them both to the one PSU.

 

Also, these 5050 RGBWW strips come with two 5 pin connectors, one on each end, with marked spots to cut them apart. You can get two sections out of each purchased 5m strip without micro soldering.

 

You should get the pin to cable wiring. I found the round ones too fine to terminate well without breaking and bending. Later I got the flat multicoloured ribbon cable ones and they have a slightly thicker wire size. You can almost see it

 

The 2.1 x 5.5mm female barrel power connector with wires was expensive at about $1.50 each.

[larryllix]

The best API I have seen so far.

 

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zoot1612/plugin_mh/master/MH_API.txt

[jtara92101]

No.

 

Many dimmable fluorescent strips have a 0-10v input and Insteon has a module that support that with a 0-10vdc output.

 

Not sure exactly what the "no" went with.

 

Many dimmable fluorescent strips AND many commercial LED fixtures AND some LED ribbon drivers have a 0-10V control input, and Insteon has a module that supports that with a 0-10V output. The "fluorescent" in the description is a red herring. It is just an Insteon module that has a 0-10V control signal output.

 

You could use it to control a 0-10V D'Arsonval movement meter. With the weather module, you could make a unique temperature display!

 

0-10V is a control standard that was first applied to fluorescents, but has now been applied to LEDs.

 

A regular Insteon dimmer cannot achieve architectural dimming with anything but a tungsten bulb.

 

The new 5-channel controller that's being discussed in the other thread sounds attractive to me for another application other than kitchen - I have some shelves at the back of my living room that need light - it's really dark in that area at night, and pointing the ceiling eyeballs at them would cast nasty shadows. I would mind being able to use accent color there.

 

The 0-10V solution wouldn't be good for RGBWW. Just plain W if you want really smooth dimming down to 1% or less. (Paired with the right driver, that has variable current-limiting controlled by a 0-10V control signal, not chopping.)

 

Technically, the Insteon ballast dimmer, and the "ballast" (driver) itself belong in a proper enclosure, a divided one to boot - to keep the line voltage and the control and LV apart. The enclosures are readily available if you look online, you can get them in various sizes, and to hold 1 or 2 of those rectangular "ballast-like thingies". The sizes are kind of standardized. Again, because there is a history with fluorescents which are now old as the hills, so the industry tends to stick with existing envelope sizes for convenience.

 

You would normally wire this in to your box, but I suppose you could plug it in.

 

You would use any Insteon KPL or SL to control it. The dimmer load would not be used. If you have a KPL in your kitchen, you could assign two buttons to the two strips, and still use the load for some other lighting. For example, you could just replace your overhead switch with a KPL and kill 3 birds with one stone.

 

Most will probably want the RGBWW. For kitchen, though:

 

- I don't care to change the color temperature

- I don't need or want colors

- I demand super hi CRI, which you cannot get in an RGBWW

- I demand architectural dimming to 1%

[Scottmichaelj]

I use leds in my kitchen. You will want one controller for each area and possibly one for uppers and one for lowers. I have 6 - 3 uppers/3 lowers for each "section". Larrys old and his eye sight is horrible I recommend highly using the 4in1 leds. You can then mix colors to get that perfect color or white. When you put the rgb and separate white leds strips too close you see the two leds. Take it from the OCD guy go with the 4in1. I don't even think they cost much more and in the long run you will be happier. You can use the 2477S just remember that will be just on/off. Might be better to hardwire the switched outlets to always hot and use a KPL. Then use the "main on/off" as that, then use the kpl buttons for either colors, presets, or brightness. Everything will be done as a program in the ISY. For example if KPL button X is on then run program X and then use the Network Resource to send the command to the controller(s). Get it? Got it? Good? If not happy to help more.

[Scottmichaelj]

Most will probably want the RGBWW. For kitchen, though:

 

- I don't care to change the color temperature

- I don't need or want colors

- I demand super hi CRI, which you cannot get in an RGBWW

- I demand architectural dimming to 1%

Thats quite a list of demands you got!

[Tim Wilson]

]I recommend highly using the 4in1 leds.

 

 

Thanks for the info. Do you have a specific LED strip you'd recommend?

[Scottmichaelj]

Thanks for the info. Do you have a specific LED strip you'd recommend?

Tim-

 

Check out my thread here. Others have added to it as well. Good info.

 

MagicHome LED WiFi Controller

 

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=23986&share_tid=21706&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Euniversal-devices%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3F%2Ftopic%2F21706-MagicHome-LED-WiFi-Controller&share_type=t

[larryllix]

Not sure exactly what the "no" went with.

 

 

0-10V is a control standard that was first applied to fluorescents, but has now been applied to LEDs.

<snippage>

Most will probably want the RGBWW. For kitchen, though:

 

- I don't care to change the color temperature

- I don't need or want colors

- I demand super hi CRI, which you cannot get in an RGBWW

- I demand architectural dimming to 1%

The No was to answer the attached question regarding the 2477D as an RGBW dimmer.

 

-I don't care to change the colour temperature either. you pick one for the job.

-You think you don't want colours until later. The cost is about the same as single white. I thought you were younger and sex lights may still work in your house.

-The 5050 RGBWW strips I have are a very soft white lights, maybe about 3100K but I have no way to measure the CRI. It would be interesting to get a colour wheel and establish CRI roughly. Every so often I marvel at the soft/smoothness of the white light these strips put out. The CFLs and the BR40 LEDs I have look like thin, cheap white in comparison.

- I assume by achitectural dimming, you do not refer to the step resolution, but rather to the lowest dimming level available. I don't need 100 levels, only about 5-6 levels. Even Insteon does it very smoothly (to the eye) except that most LED bulbs do not dim below about 8%, so far.

 

A lot of your words are missing the letter "u"

 

One of the problems with mixing a bunch of colours into white is they may not dim exactly at the same rate, giving dimmed levels with colour taints (not that one )

[larryllix]

 

 

Tim-

Check out my thread here. Others have added to it as well. Good info.

MagicHome LED WiFi Controller

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=23986&share_tid=21706&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Euniversal-devices%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3F%2Ftopic%2F21706-MagicHome-LED-WiFi-Controller&share_type=t

oooops!   missed! 

 

Try this one.

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/19913-magic-ufo-controller-for-rgbw/page-1?do=findComment&comment=189572

[jtara92101]

- I assume by architectural dimming, you do not refer to the step resolution, but rather to the lowest dimming level available. I don't need 100 levels, only about 5-6 levels. Even Insteon does it very smoothly (to the eye) except that most LED bulbs do not dim below about 8%, so far.

 

A lot of your words are missing the letter "u"

 

 

Yes, I am referring to the lowest dimming level. 

 

The 8% problem is an artifact of trying to dim LEDs by chopping the 120V with an SCR dimmer. LEDs are perfectly capable of being dimmed to < 1%, given the right driver.

 

Thank you about the "u"s... Time to pull all the key-tops off of the clicky keyboard (Unicomp, they have the license to make the original IBM clicky keyboard).

 

I'm glad we had this conversation, as now I think I really need to find a big antique meter and drive it with one of those 0-10V dimmers. Then an 8-button KPL with... hmmmm... temperature, humidity, time, chance of rain, nearby traffic...

 

I suppose a rPi with a node server would actually be the most flexible.

 

Hey. I wonder if there is a 5-channel driver with 0-10V control input for each channel? That and a raspberry pi with 5 channels of analog output, and the world is your oyster! No more dependence on Chinese firmware of dubious quality and undocumented APIs.

[larryllix]

Yes, I am referring to the lowest dimming level. 

 

The 8% problem is an artifact of trying to dim LEDs by chopping the 120V with an SCR dimmer. LEDs are perfectly capable of being dimmed to < 1%, given the right driver.

 

Thank you about the "u"s... Time to pull all the key-tops off of the clicky keyboard (Unicomp, they have the license to make the original IBM clicky keyboard).

 

I'm glad we had this conversation, as now I think I really need to find a big antique meter and drive it with one of those 0-10V dimmers. Then an 8-button KPL with... hmmmm... temperature, humidity, time, chance of rain, nearby traffic...

 

I suppose a rPi with a node server would actually be the most flexible.

 

Hey. I wonder if there is a 5-channel driver with 0-10V control input for each channel? That and a raspberry pi with 5 channels of analog output, and the world is your oyster! No more dependence on Chinese firmware of dubious quality and undocumented APIs.

Oh Gawd! I may have a large Variac I could mail you! Wait!... It would have to be on a skid or wooden framed box ...so  transport maybe.

 

You have no idea of some of the 1930s metering stuff I left behind when I retired. Think mirrored scales for supreme accuracy, due to proper eye alignment.

[Scottmichaelj]

oooops! missed!

 

Try this one.

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/19913-magic-ufo-controller-for-rgbw/page-1?do=findComment&comment=189572

Thanks for the backup! Can you do my spell checking and grammar fixes too?

[larryllix]

Thanks for the backup! Can you do my spell checking and grammar fixes too?

Wasn't doing your taxes enough? ooops... wrong country.