Help diagnose phantom ON event

[MustangChris04]

Hi all, 

 

I just had a random event in which a bunch of devices in my house turned on when my daily landscape lights scene was triggered at sunset. Every sunset my outside lights turn on, but today at the exact same time these lights turned on, 10 random lights/fans in my house responded and also turned ON. This is a little frustrating because I checked the logs and there are no entries that show these devices were ever turned on, and I suspect the state of these devices in the ISY were still recorded as being OFF, even though they turned on. I attached a screenshot with further explanation. 

 

I wasn't even around to physically trigger any of these devices, and I checked all my surveillance cameras and all these random devices did turn ON at the exact same time when my landscape lighting scene turned on at its scheduled time. I'd also like to mention that these random devices that all responded are not part of a common scene. My wife is flipping out about the reliability (especially that something like this could open/close my garage or turn on a garbage disposal), as this has happened in the past, and I have no idea where to begin on stopping this from happening. 

 

Thanks,

Christopher

 

[Techman]

There's a good chance your ON event is due to a failing PLM

 

How many motion sensors do you have?

 

What ISY firmware are you running?

 

What's the date code and version of your PLM?

[MWareman]

There is a large thread and a wiki article (https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON_Random_All_On_Events) on the possible causes of the elusive all-on. It's such a common issue that newer Insteon devices ship without the all-on command enabled.

 

Basically, there is an (unknown) condition caused by one of several events and/or collisions that can cause a corrupted message that is a interpreted as all-on by many devices. A common symptom is the status of the devices is not updated in ISY as it's a collision outside of ISYs visibility.

 

Common implied causes are-

Wireless devices (they send messages multiple times) specially when driving a program that triggers a scene or device

And

KPL buttons (lighting them from programs without a delay at the beginning)

 

I encourage you to read about the all-on issue on the Wiki. Also, consider not using Insteon (an insecure protocol) for controlling a garage door.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mwester]

And take the insteon device off the garbage disposal, too -- before someone gets hurt!

[MustangChris04]

Hi Techman,

PLM is a month old, replaced direct from smarthome. v2.2 1629. Previous one just failed. I have two motion sensors, which I don't even use for anything so if that could be a problem I could easily get rid of them. They also have new batteries which were replaced last week. I checked my surveillance and no motion was occurring when this happened. Only after the fact was a motion sensor triggered. ISY v4.5.4. 

 

Thank you for the Wiki MWareman. Looks like I will review everything to make sure I do not have any programs that control and run a scene. I don't believe so but I'll double check.

 

Would there be a reason why not all my devices responded to the ALL ON? One of the devices responded was a Dual ON/OFF outlet, which I believe is pretty new compared to a lot of their other devices. Is there any way to turn this function off? Was there a purpose smartlabs did this, and if the newer devices have this turned off, will they RMA old devices to avoid this?

 

Regarding the garage, does anybody know of a IP module that could control the garage that I could use with the networking module? And the garbage disposal is not added to ISY or linked to the PLM, so could that still respond to an ALL ON?

 

Thanks!

[Techman]

The current hardware version for the PLM is 2.3

 

If there's no entries in your log for any of the devices that turned on then there's a good possibility that the ON signal originated in the PLM.

I'm not sure what changed in the PLM  between versions 2.2 and 2.3, but I know there was an issue with the RS232 daughter board interface in the PLM which has recently been updated along with some capacitors in the PLM power supply that were known to fail.

[Brian H]

In April 2017 I received a 2413S PLM V2.3. Date Code:4216.

[paulbates]

Would there be a reason why not all my devices responded to the ALL ON? One of the devices responded was a Dual ON/OFF outlet, which I believe is pretty new compared to a lot of their other devices. Is there any way to turn this function off? Was there a purpose smartlabs did this, and if the newer devices have this turned off, will they RMA old devices to avoid this?

Normally the explanation would be older devices would respond to the phantom All On, and newer ones would not. I'm not sure if the dual on/off was manufactured before or after Insteon removed the all/on off in firmware, or how long the dual outlet was on the shelf. 

 

The all/on off feature was a carry over concept from X10 where you could turn all devices on a house code on or off.  (Early model Insteon devices could be configured to respond to X10 commands too) I think it was there initially to appeal to people (like me) who migrated from X10 to Insteon. However, we can build the same capability with our own scenes, so an All On feature makes no sense, IMO. I've never used or wanted it. 

 

I would be very surprised if they RMA'd older devices to remove it, but If you have the FW version of the dual outlet, you could call SH and ask them.

 

And the garbage disposal is not added to ISY or linked to the PLM, so could that still respond to an ALL ON?

Yes, it can and will (if it has the all/on feature).. its not related to linking to the ISY.

 

Paul

[MustangChris04]

In April 2017 I received a 2413S PLM V2.3. Date Code:4216.

Unbelievable. I received mine in June and apparently much older.

 

The current hardware version for the PLM is 2.3

 

If there's no entries in your log for any of the devices that turned on then there's a good possibility that the ON signal originated in the PLM.

I'm not sure what changed in the PLM  between versions 2.2 and 2.3, but I know there was an issue with the RS232 daughter board interface in the PLM which has recently been updated along with some capacitors in the PLM power supply that were known to fail.

Are you saying the v2.3 "should" no longer have the failing issue after 2 years?

 

I would be very surprised if they RMA'd older devices to remove it, but If you have the FW version of the dual outlet, you could call SH and ask them.

 

 

Paul

 

Would their support even have a changelog of the different revisions?

[Techman]

Not sure if 2.3 is the final fix. We all hope so. It was a hardware revision so something got updated.

 

As far as RMA on the PLM's, Smarthome has taken a responsible position when it comes to replacing defective PLMs. Give their customer service line a call.

[paulbates]

Would their support even have a changelog of the different revisions?

 

I asked over in the Insteon forums previously. There is this comment "....To be more specific this command class was removed (approx) February 2014 for switches and keypad lincs and anything with firmware v.44.....".

 

You can ask, they worst they can do is not be able to say "no"

 

Paul

[Brian H]

The review section of the 2413S page. Indicated they had identified a problem component and V2.3 should have the fix.

I believe it was the RS232 IC as the latest  one has a ESD classification . The C7 and C13 are now 50 volt and component glued against the PCB. As they where a tight fit in the normal vertical position.