thbrewst Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 I am trying to add 2 new Insteon switches in a 3 way set-up (2 switches controlling the same lights). However one of the switch boxes does not have a neutral wire. So, is it possible for me to add a '2 wire switch' at one location and a regular 3 wire switch at the other location and have all of this function properly? I have never used a 2 wire switch before so I am not sure if there are limitations. Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 If you intend to use the 2 wire Insteon version of switch the load must be a incandescent / halogen bulb. As it steals its power from the load itself to power the Insteon hardware. https://www.smarthome.com/switchlinc-2-wire-dimmer-insteon-2474dwh-remote-control-dimmer-rf-white.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thbrewst Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 Ugh, I did not see that the first time around...that stinks as this is for the main kitchen lights so I would hate to be permanently stuck with old bulb tech. What would another option be? Just remove the switch entirely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Ugh, I did not see that the first time around...that stinks as this is for the main kitchen lights so I would hate to be permanently stuck with old bulb tech. What would another option be? Just remove the switch entirely? Another option is to go up to the light fixture and re-purpose the wire so there is a neutral at the light switch. You can see lots of You Tube videos that address how to do so. I also agree with you having old school lights in the home when 99% are switched over to newer LED technology makes little sense. The only time it does make sense is if the fixture has very little run time so in that case does it make sense investing $5~150.00. For a load that isn't used that much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Also, you can use the Micro Modules at the load as another possible solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thbrewst Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 Also, you can use the Micro Modules at the load as another possible solution. Do micro modules work in 2 wire set-ups? Or do you mean I could put the module behind the one switch that has neutral and it would still allow the other switch to work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Do micro modules work in 2 wire set-ups? Or do you mean I could put the module behind the one switch that has neutral and it would still allow the other switch to work? More specifically the *Micro Dimmer / Relay* would be installed up top at the light fixture as there is a neutral wire present. It would make the dumb switch below at ground level *Smart*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thbrewst Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 More specifically the *Micro Dimmer / Relay* would be installed up top at the light fixture as there is a neutral wire present. It would make the dumb switch below at ground level *Smart*. Ah, gotcha. It is actually a series of can lights. Would it matter where it goes as long as it was attached to the neutral within the overall circuit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Ah, gotcha. It is actually a series of can lights. Would it matter where it goes as long as it was attached to the neutral within the overall circuit? Your first task is to confirm what the existing wattage is and see if its within the Micro Dimmer / Relays wattage rating. Keeping in mind we are going to assume these are still incandescent bulbs in use. Once you install the LED bulbs its a none issue moving forward but you need to take that into account now. The Micro module can be installed at the beginning of the wire run where it connect to the switch below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Virtually every 3-way configuration can be converted to a virtual Insteon 3-way using the existing wires. The only configuration that requires special attention (an additional module) is where power enters at the fixture and one 3-way switch has a 2-wire cable to the fixture and a 3-wire cable to the other 3-way switch. If power enters at one of the switch boxes and not at the fixture, then only two Insteon switches/dimmers are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Virtually every 3-way configuration can be converted to a virtual Insteon 3-way using the existing wires. The only configuration that requires special attention (an additional module) is where power enters at the fixture and one 3-way switch has a 2-wire cable to the fixture and a 3-wire cable to the other 3-way switch. If power enters at one of the switch boxes and not at the fixture, then only two Insteon switches/dimmers are needed. This is likely true. The traveler wire is no longer needed when using Insteon switches. You can re-purpose the traveler wire to be a neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 This is likely true. The traveler wire is no longer needed when using Insteon switches. You can re-purpose the traveler wire to be a neutral. A 3-way configuration must have two travelers. Only one of the two need be repurposed to be a neutral wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 A 3-way configuration must have two travelers. Only one of the two need be repurposed to be a neutral wire. One of them has to be used as your hot, since there will not be a hot at every box. So you are typically left with one unused wire. It is that wire that you can repurpose to a neutral when no neutral is already present (as will often be the case in older homes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 There are three wires connected to a 3-way switch. Two are travelers. The third is either line or load. Only one of the two switch boxes will need a re-purposed line wire. The one exception is when the line enters at the fixture. That's a different situation and usually requires a third device (i.e., Micro Module). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 There are three wires connected to a 3-way switch. Two are travelers. The third is either line or load. Only one of the two switch boxes will need a re-purposed line wire. The one exception is when the line enters at the fixture. That's a different situation and usually requires a third device (i.e., Micro Module). Not exactly. The line wire is never repurposed. Only the traveler wire is repurposed to become a line. You can't change the status of a wire at one end and claim that the other end status is not also changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Not exactly. The line wire is never repurposed. Only the traveler wire is repurposed to become a line. You can't change the status of a wire at one end and claim that the other end status is not also changed. I don't see anywhere I indicated that only one end of a wire is re-purposed. Where did I mislead you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose66 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 I don't see anywhere I indicated that only one end of a wire is re-purposed. Where did I mislead you? I think the notion that the three wires consists of two travelers and one line/load. The wires running between j-boxes in a multi-switch circuit installed in the last 35 years will 85% of the time comprise two travelers and a common. The common is usually the white (neutral) wire when the line is on one end of the multi-switch circuit and the load is on the other end. If the line and load are at the same end, then what I've seen most of the time is the white and red wires used as travelers and the black (load) as the common. When replacing these types of multi-switch circuits with insteon, the black wire should be used as line, the white used as neutral, and the red capped and not used throughout the whole circuit. The load is attached to whichever switch is in the j-box with the load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 In any standard 3-way configuration, if a white wire connects to a switch, then it is never, ever a neutral wire.There are some "standards" in the use of each color wire when the wiring is Romex, but that generally varies by region, not the electrical code. That means that any color, black, red or white can be either of two traveler wires, a line wire of a load wire. The code does require that a wire that is not a neutral be identified as such either by the color of the wire or phasing tape or another approved method (e.g., paint). Any color can be used except white, gray or green. The former two colors are reserved for neutral wires and the latter for ground. As it happens, the rule is not always enforced. BTW, "common" nearly always means the neutral wire. The line is often referred to as the "hot" wire. And, for completeness, the load is also called the "switch return." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottAvery Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 I am trying to add 2 new Insteon switches in a 3 way set-up (2 switches controlling the same lights). However one of the switch boxes does not have a neutral wire. So, is it possible for me to add a '2 wire switch' at one location and a regular 3 wire switch at the other location and have all of this function properly? I have never used a 2 wire switch before so I am not sure if there are limitations. Thanks... Ignoring the debate about wire color standards, the fact is that it is possible you can repurpose the existing wiring to have the required wires present in each box, but we will need more information, to include cable and conductor counts, to be able to make useful suggestions. If there really isn't a neutral around you can probably switch to another circuit through a nearby outlet, as the device without a load draws next to nothing. You claim one box does not have a neutral, so what does it have? How many conductors, of what color, coming from how many cables? For the other box? Were the existing standard switches already in a 3 way with travelers as discussed above, or did the switches control different things and you want to combine them? Are both controlled by the same breaker in your electric panel? Do you know where the power comes into the circuit? Have you tested? Access to wiring in can lights is not always easy, so one would hope that the hot is already in one of the boxes. Do you know which cable goes to the lights? Any wires pushed in the back of the boxes that you didn't count? A bundle of whites, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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