Decision Time: Z-Wave Plus or İnsteon

[TriLife]

So, I've been playing with the 994 for a while in anticipation of building a new home. Now that the floorplan is completed, it is time for the electrical and home automation.

 

The home will be in Colombian countryside,a one story construction of reinforced concrete and brick, over 6000sqf on two landscaped acres. Yes, Colombia means heavy on security, lighting and cameras! Security will likely be provided by an ELK M1 Gold panel.

 

Should I go Insteon or Z-Wave Plus?

 

I like Zwave for it's OTA firmware upgradability, but it is limited to less than 250 circuits and given the size of the property and the concrete walls, I'm worried about RF range.

 

Insteon is attractive because it can handle 1000+ circuits and with Powerline in addition to RF mesh networking...

 

I would be very grateful for anyone to voice an opinion on the topic and provide any other guidance.

 

Cheers.

[Teken]

If you have a Z-Wave enabled controller you have the best of both worlds.

 

Install Insteon & Z-Wave where it makes sense through out the property.

 

 

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[oberkc]

I agree with teken.  I see no reason to limit yourself to only a single type.  In some types of devices, Z-wave may be the better option.  In others, insteon.

 

While I use both, be aware that I think the z-wave support in the released software may be limited.  It may be necessary to use v5 software in the ISY to have a more full set of capabilities with Z-wave devices.

 

(Perhaps others can jump in and provide a more detailed list of additional z-wave capabilities provided by moving to V5, if any.)

[G W]

Well..... Read this....

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/index.php?/topic/22708-The-start-of-my-Insteon-defection

 

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[TriLife]

Thanks all for the quick feedback. Sounds like Z-Wave+ it will be...

[lilyoyo1]

Personally I'd go with Insteon. I've seen people try to do zwave in concrete and stone homes in Cali and have nothing but issues. It can work but the couple I know of regret that choice. 1 ended up switching to insteon and was happy afterwards

[stusviews]

I agree with both Teken and oberkc. Why restrict yourself to one protocol when neither has a full complement of devices. For example, there are no Z-Wave equivalents for the 5 and 8 button keypads nor FanLincs, but Insteon locks are pathetic.

[Teken]

Another thing to consider regarding Z-Wave. The ISY Series Controller does not currently support Z-Wave Generation 5 chip set or Z-Wave Plus.

 

Regardless of the above I would encourage you to purchase all Z-Wave Gen 5 Plus hardware for future proofing.

 

Lastly, both protocol require a solid mesh network and this takes investment of time, resources, and finances. If you're planning to go the Z-Wave route ensure the ISY Series Controller is high mounted and centrally located as possible.

 

Otherwise, get ready to deploy dozens of repeater siren / door bells!!

 

 

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[TriLife]

And the plot thickens...

 

Now, I have a couple of areas in the home needing sensors and actors, but which are steel reinforced concrete, at least 1m underground. No RF for sure. Think wine cellar and pump room.. They will have Cat6 Ethernet, however.

 

Thinking out loud: how about a Raspberry Pi with a Razberry HAT or Z-Stick, which can receive all the information from there and transmit it via Ethernet to the main hub. In fact, why not use a local hub to talk to the main hub. Is that possible?

 

On the Gen5 compatibility of 994i: any expected ETA for a firmware upgrade?

 

Thanks!

[TriLife]

BTW, I mistakenly posted this on the "Previous versions", and then reposted it on "Questions", where it should be. You mind migrating over there, where it is more relevant?

 

Sorry about that...

[io_guy]

The ISY supports gen5 devices, it's just not Gen5 itself which unfortunately kills a lot of the benfits right now. It is a hardware upgrade for it to become gen5 itself.

 

If you have cat5 to those rooms then you could always put a hard sensor into an Insteon or Zwave IO module located in a better area.

[TriLife]

And the plot thickens...

 

Now, I have a couple of areas in the home needing sensors and actors, but which are steel reinforced concrete, at least 1m underground. No RF for sure. Think wine cellar and pump room.. They will have Cat6 Ethernet, however.

 

Thinking out loud: how about a Raspberry Pi with a Razberry HAT or Z-Stick, which can receive all the information from there and transmit it via Ethernet to the main hub. In fact, why not use a local hub to talk to the main hub. Is that possible?

 

 

So, I got in touch with the Razberry HAT guys and they confirm that the above solution is viable. They even have an app for it called "Link other Z-Way Controller" that does precisely that!

 

This means that for about $60 you can have an Ethernet bridge to a remote Z-Wave group, which you cannot reach through WiFi or meshing.

[Teken]

Since you're considering the ELK Security Alarm System you can immediately avoid any comm issues by using the hard wired sensors and have it fed back to the ISY Series Controller.

 

You're going to be deploying this brand new so all of this is easy and doable during the framing stages. I would highly advise you to have conduit and pull string in key areas so any future wiring is made easier and ensures future proofing. Ensure CAT5e / 22-4 alarm wire is pulled in key areas so you're not stuck with one solution vs the other.

 

Lastly a bit of clarification on Gen 5 vs Plus.

 

Z-Wave Plus is a software protocol standard which the ISY Series Controller can be upgraded to. Gen 5 is a 128 bit hardware encryption, power, signaling feature. The ISY Series Controller needs to be upgraded to take advantage of that portion in the future by swapping out the Z-Wave dongle.

 

 

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[TriLife]

Thank you Teken,

 

That is a great thinking on the sensors and actors being controlled by ELK.

 

I'll make sure to have plenty of conduit and cable of both varieties in them, so I don't run into problems later.

 

 

 

Since you're considering the ELK Security Alarm System you can immediately avoid any comm issues by using the hard wired sensors and have it fed back to the ISY Series Controller.

 

You're going to be deploying this brand new so all of this is easy and doable during the framing stages. I would highly advise you to have conduit and pull string in key areas so any future wiring is made easier and ensures future proofing. Ensure CAT5e / 22-4 alarm wire is pulled in key areas so you're not stuck with one solution vs the other.

 

Lastly a bit of clarification on Gen 5 vs Plus.

 

Z-Wave Plus is a software protocol standard which the ISY Series Controller can be upgraded to. Gen 5 is a 128 bit hardware encryption, power, signaling feature. The ISY Series Controller needs to be upgraded to take advantage of that portion in the future by swapping out the Z-Wave dongle.

 

 

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[Teken]

Thank you Teken,

 

That is a great thinking on the sensors and actors being controlled by ELK.

 

I'll make sure to have plenty of conduit and cable of both varieties in them, so I don't run into problems later.

 

 

 

 

Ensure you run cable into the master bedroom for a dedicated security alarm control panel. Regardless of the control panel install a dedicated single button panic button that is hidden but easily accessible like a closet.

 

Pay special attention to the full users manual for any sensor(s) you intend to use. Each sensors full install manual will provide the minimum height, distance, and limits that must be met to ensure 100% reliability and uptime.

 

Do not install or use security sensors outside that are not so rated.

 

Also, even though POE is all the rage for security camera systems always pull power / coaxial cable to the same areas.

 

It's going to save your bacon and ensure ANY camera can be used without Baluns. Also if you intend to use high powered PTZ cameras that exceed POE AT standards ensure CAT 6 / CAT 7 23 AWG wire is pulled.

 

As many cheaper wire use 26, 24, AWG wire. Lastly, do not purchase or use CCA cable!!

 

Copper Clad Aluminum is rampant and sold everywhere. It's not certified for in wall use and does not meet many of the industry standards.

 

You may pay more for certified solid copper but this is an investment you simply can't get wrong the first time.

 

 

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[Teken]

Also on a related topic ensure the builder installs a minimum of 5 Wire pair for the HVAC. Ideally 5~8 so any thermostat system can be used. Nothing is worse than to find out your favorite X TSTAT can't be used without MORE out of pocket costs like wiring adapters etc.

 

 

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[TriLife]

Very useful information. Thanks so much!!

 

I just read up on the CCA wire and a YouTube video, which showed supposed Cat5e barely even twisted! I'll make sure to put the cable to the fire test, which seems to be the easiest way to look for fakes. A Cat6 cable tester runs close to $5k. Not sure I want to invest that much.

 

While I won't be pulling all the wire myself, I'm going to be planning it out and be on site to supervise every day. Anything else I should be looking out for?

 

The house is quite a sprawl, almost 5000sqf in a U shape. I'm planning on Cat6 (double) and fibre (double) to the AV points and as a backbone. Double Cat6 to all rooms. Wired sensors for doors, windows and motion. Should those be 4 wire?

 

The climate is temperate all year, so no HVAC.

 

How about drape controls? What wiring do those require?

 

Thanks again

[Teken]

Very useful information. Thanks so much!!

 

I just read up on the CCA wire and a YouTube video, which showed supposed Cat5e barely even twisted! I'll make sure to put the cable to the fire test, which seems to be the easiest way to look for fakes. A Cat6 cable tester runs close to $5k. Not sure I want to invest that much.

 

While I won't be pulling all the wire myself, I'm going to be planning it out and be on site to supervise every day. Anything else I should be looking out for?

 

The house is quite a sprawl, almost 5000sqf in a U shape. I'm planning on Cat6 (double) and fibre (double) to the AV points and as a backbone. Double Cat6 to all rooms. Wired sensors for doors, windows and motion. Should those be 4 wire?

 

The climate is temperate all year, so no HVAC.

 

How about drape controls? What wiring do those require?

 

Thanks again

 

CAT6 cable comes in 26, 24, 23 AWG so ensure you purchase solid 23 AWG copper Ethernet cable. 22-4 alarm wire for all parts of the security system except the speaker / siren which should be at least 18 AWG. Some pull 16 AWG because of longer distance and to reduce voltage drop which you must ensure you follow the ELK's allowed wiring distance per run / per total system wiring distance.

 

Run 22-4 / CAT6 23 AWG for every room to monitor environmental via 1-Wire: Temperature, Humidity, Light, etc. Wiring placement for 1-Wire should be at *Human* level and not close to the floor or high in the ceilings. Having a 1-Wire sensor network will offer you complete awareness of temperature / humidity so you can provide that data to the ISY Series Controller for more conditional logic.

 

IE. System knows its warmer in the office ~ Keep the ceiling fan running an extra hour.

 

Drape control really comes down to your preference but since you're doing this from scratch you don't need to compromise and build for the long run. I would wire for 120 VAC so as to never ever having to worry about ugly plugin transformers or batteries even if it had solar. To ensure you're covered it makes sense to have electrical outlets by each window in case your *Grand Plan* doesn't materialize as you expect.

 

Siren / Speaker: Always have at least one sounder inside the home and one located (protected & covered) on the outside. I don't know if you will have an attached garage as is common in North America. But if you do install an exterior siren / speaker high up (Inside) in the rafters pointing toward the vents. When mounted in this position the entire garage roof acts like one supersized speaker cavity which emits sounds for miles.

 

Strobe: Have pre-wiring to install an exterior strobe light as all the noise in the world means nothing if no one knows where its coming from. A strobe is as much for you as its for others to see and know. They come in many sizes, shapes, and configuration so don't sweat it if in your head you think they are ugly. In 2017 the humble strobe light has become quite sexy and serves a real purpose to let fire, police, EMS, who ever *This home requires assistance*.

 

Force Protection: It goes with out saying force protection is the major element in true security. Besides reducing risks, and awareness of your surroundings. All entry doors should be impact rated for the threats you believe are relevant to you. Always install a out-swinging security storm door as it offers cross breeze ventilation and offers more time.

 

Every part of the door assembly from king stud, jack stud, etc should be sandwiched to allow the highest impact force. Once the frame is sound installing metal plates to reinforce the door, hinge, door jamb, is paramount to increase the amount of time during a breach / kick in. As pretty as side windows are and completely solid glass doors no matter the type.

 

You're asking for trouble if all of the windows and doors are glass . . . Nobody expects the common man to install bullet proof windows unless its something you can afford and want. But a nice compromise to bullet proof glass are windows, doors, garage doors that are hurricane certified. These types of windows, doors, and garage doors are common all over the United States and other hurricane prone areas.

 

These are just some examples find a brand & vendor you like and trust:

 

Lock bumping / Lock Picking: https://thedoorguardian.com/

Door products that I noted and certified to work: https://armorconcepts.com/ 

Window & Doors: https://www.metalexdoors.com/

Hurricane Window Example: http://www.pella.com/features-options/hurricaneshield/

 

Perimeter Lighting: Planning and wiring for proactive and reactive motion lights is imperative for best video, awareness, and user safety. If done right it offers excellent ambiance and nice mood lighting. In 2017 there is no reason to use anything besides high output LED. As this offers you long service life, reliability, and reduced power consumption.

 

Passive Hause Technology: Regardless of where you live from hot, cold, temperate following the basic design principles of *Passive Hause* will offer you a lifetime of comfort and energy savings. To employ such techniques adds from 15~35% more to the total building cost(s). But the ROI (Return on investment) is approx <5 years.

 

One important aspect of *Passive Hause* is to ensure proper air flow and circulation and installing solar vents in the roof will ensure *Heat Soaking* into the home is never seen. Even in your area the attic should be insulated to at least R50 and if you follow *Passive Hause* >R75. Also, insulating interior walls using fire rated *Roxul* not only provides stable temperatures but reduces noise and offers increased fire protection.

 

I've done almost everything on this list in my own way to ensure my home is small but mighty!!  

[KeviNH]

Given the distance concerns, I would use a mix of Z-Wave and Insteon, and I would never design anything important around rPi.

 

I just read up on the CCA wire and a YouTube video, which showed supposed Cat5e barely even twisted! I'll make sure to put the cable to the fire test, which seems to be the easiest way to look for fakes. A Cat6 cable tester runs close to $5k. Not sure I want to invest that much.

While I won't be pulling all the wire myself, I'm going to be planning it out and be on site to supervise every day. Anything else I should be looking out for?

The house is quite a sprawl, almost 5000sqf in a U shape. I'm planning on Cat6 (double) and fibre (double) to the AV points and as a backbone. Double Cat6 to all rooms. Wired sensors for doors, windows and motion. Should those be 4 wire?

If you hire a pro to pull Ethernet cable and fiber, they should be willing to bring the appropriate certified test gear and provide test reports for each run.   This is standard for any corporate network cabling contract.   Alternately, you can rent a good Cat-6 tester by the day.
 
For alarm sensors I would run  no less than 4 conductors for passive sensors, and use a Cat-6  "home run" cable for every active sensor (motion, glass break, smoke, etc).  Assuming you're going to put multiple passive sensors on the same run/zone (e.g. all windows in one room together), read up on proper use of EOL resistors.

[Teken]

Other considerations since the home is a virtual clean slate. Pre-wire for leak sensors for sinks, toilets, washer, dishwasher, hot water tank, sump. Also, for the very best electrical grounding system to protect the entire home consider asking the GC to install a Ufer grounding system.