sdynak Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Hi everyone.. I am about at my wits end here.. Past few weeks my system has been acting slow, miss communications and past few days not communicating with any devices for long periods of times. So I want to mention right up front I am on my 2nd PLM throughout this thinking possibly I got a faulty 1st replacement. Both replacements act the same and have not helped. So in summary.. I have gone all day with nothing communication then all the sudden I try a query to a device and it works. At that point I am able to restore/update all devices and the system is back. I have gone through this a few times over the past few days and now I am really starting to think there is something with the ISY itself. I have also tried swapping the network cable between the PLM and ISY with no change. Firmware is 4.6.2 and UI is 4.5.4 When it gets in this state I can't even add a new device (as a test).. Out of nowhere all the sudden it starts working and all will be good until I try to control a device from the admin panel or do a query to a device. Then they all just go down.. Upon reboot (several trust me) the entire system will query and take a while to go back to a ready state only to start all over.. I have been disabling most devices just to try & focus on one to get it back working and put one device in the same outlet as the PLM and nothing. In all the years I have had this I have swapped the PLM once and thought for sure it was another PLM but doesn't look that way. Anyone ever see a ISY go bad? Is there a way to restore one without needing to add everything back in? I have backups from old to very recent working conditions. Have tried that also.. I get the same results after a restore with no communication until it decides it wants to. Any thoughts what to look for at this point given the symptoms? Really not believing the ISY itself is going but don't see what else would cause this with a new PLM in the same outlet won't acknowledge or even a new device. Thanks in advance!! Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G W Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 "Firmware is 4.6.2 and UI is 4.5.4" This is a BIG issue. The UI MUST match the Firmware. There are literally hundreds of posts on here stating that fact. PLEASE UPDATE THE UI AND START OVER. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Hello Stan, Some house cleaning you need to do and next steps. - Ensure the UI & Firmware match to 4.6.2: https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/22000-release-462-is-now-official/page-1 - Power down the ISY Series Controller and eject the Micro SD card and clean it and insert back - Tools -> Diagnotics -> PLM Info: Does the system return the Insteon MAC address and indicate *Connected*? - Tools -> Diagnostics -> PLM Link Tables: Run this 3~4 times while the house is quiet what is the link count? - Unplug the 2413S PLM and read off the production date, revision, and what the ISY Series Controller notes as the firmware in place - Disable all programs: What happens to the controller is it better, same, worse? - Configurations -> System: Disable Query on restart: Is the system better, same, worse? - Disable Devices: if there are any pieces of hardware giving you issues right mouse click on that node and select *Disable* is everything fine after you reboot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdynak Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 Thanks Gary & Teken.. I updated the UI.. as I said it started recently so have been using that config since I believe the last FW in June so didn't think that was the culprit but for good measure makes sense to update for sure. Powered down the ISY, removed, checked & cleaned the SD card.. (no change i.e. no communication, unable to query or restore, write updates - note all items disabled except for one in the same plug as the PLM) Ck tools PLM info - Yes.. it returns the MAC & says connected .. I have verified this before after swapping the PLM(s).. should have mentioned PLM links table count = 54 1st run (only 1 active device as mentioned above tho) .. 132 2nd run, 52 3rd run, 21 4th run. Is this normal to have a variance like this? PLM sticker details - says rev is 2.3 followed by 4616.. don't see a date on the sticker. Is that part of the 4616? The PLM details in the GUI says v9E. Is that the FW you are asking? Programs - disabled all and restarted as well.. Still not able to update, query or restore just 1 device enabled Disabled query on start - effectively did this by disabling devices already but left 1 still and attempted after restart no change to the 1 enabled device. Not able to communicate, update or restore. Disabled all devices and restarted.. tried to enable a separate device and similar not able to communicate, update or restore. I am not aware of any issue with a specific device to disable it but they all are at the moment and can't get any given one to work right now. Just to mention I do watch level 3 events when I do all this and when thing work I can tell immediately by the calibrating & messages I see that things are working.. Otherwise it seems to try 3 times. Another odd thing is I can see events from the devices if manually operated even when disabled and the system in this state but until this state clears I can't get them to update or restore in linking mode anyway.. Just thought it was odd to see the communications in the event viewer for them although the actual functions won't work with the state they are in. And my z-wave works fine outside of this. The only zwave device I have communicates normal regardless of the Insteon side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Thanks Gary & Teken.. I updated the UI.. as I said it started recently so have been using that config since I believe the last FW in June so didn't think that was the culprit but for good measure makes sense to update for sure. Powered down the ISY, removed, checked & cleaned the SD card.. (no change i.e. no communication, unable to query or restore, write updates - note all items disabled except for one in the same plug as the PLM) Ck tools PLM info - Yes.. it returns the MAC & says connected .. I have verified this before after swapping the PLM(s).. should have mentioned PLM links table count = 54 1st run (only 1 active device as mentioned above tho) .. 132 2nd run, 52 3rd run, 21 4th run. Is this normal to have a variance like this? <- How many actual devices do you have enrolled into the ISY Series Controller? The PLM Link Count does vary and isn't 100% accurate hence why I asked you to run it several times. Try to run it another 4~5 times to see if there is a better returned value. So generally speaking for each device there will be at least 2~3 links per device besides the KPL's. So just generally speaking if you had 10 devices it should be at least 10 but around 30 etc. If you have 50 and the system always says something crazy like 0~20 the PLM is going bad. There is a link calculator in the WiKi it will give you a general idea if I find it I'll offer it here. PLM sticker details - says rev is 2.3 followed by 4616.. don't see a date on the sticker. Is that part of the 4616? The PLM details in the GUI says v9E. Is that the FW you are asking? <- Yup your 2413S PLM is fairly new produced in 2016 46th week of that year. Programs - disabled all and restarted as well.. Still not able to update, query or restore just 1 device enabled Disabled query on start - effectively did this by disabling devices already but left 1 still and attempted after restart no change to the 1 enabled device. Not able to communicate, update or restore. Disabled all devices and restarted.. tried to enable a separate device and similar not able to communicate, update or restore. I am not aware of any issue with a specific device to disable it but they all are at the moment and can't get any given one to work right now. Just to mention I do watch level 3 events when I do all this and when thing work I can tell immediately by the calibrating & messages I see that things are working.. Otherwise it seems to try 3 times. Another odd thing is I can see events from the devices if manually operated even when disabled and the system in this state but until this state clears I can't get them to update or restore in linking mode anyway.. Just thought it was odd to see the communications in the event viewer for them although the actual functions won't work with the state they are in. And my z-wave works fine outside of this. The only zwave device I have communicates normal regardless of the Insteon side. Hello Stan, Thanks for all the follow up on this some feedback in line . . . If we assume you have a failing 2413S PLM this needs to be replaced. In the interim you can try a PLM restore to correct the missing links. If we assume the 2413S PLM is OK this could very well be a comm issue. Easiest thing to do is unplug all the electronics in the home where it make sense and turn off the breakers for those you can't easily reach for a short period of time. This is simply to confirm if there is something in the home that is giving you comm issues. A quick thing to do is place the 2413S PLM on a long extension cord and plug it into a dedicate outlet not connected to anything else on the line. Try the update, query, etc and report back . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Stan, Here is the link calculator: http://www.universal-devices.com/tools/insteon/calc_plm_links.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdynak Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 Thanks Teken.. I will go through some of the link calculators but just to mention I have replaced the PLM 2X in the past 4 days with no change.. I do not think it is the PLM and right now the PLM is on only 1 circuit from the panel with the 1 enabled device I'm working on at the moment. This circuit comes out of the panel for about a foot and terminates right there in my laundry room. Nothing else is on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Thanks Teken.. I will go through some of the link calculators but just to mention I have replaced the PLM 2X in the past 4 days with no change.. I do not think it is the PLM and right now the PLM is on only 1 circuit from the panel with the 1 enabled device I'm working on at the moment. This circuit comes out of the panel for about a foot and terminates right there in my laundry room. Nothing else is on it. Hello Stan, If the 2413S PLM is literally new I would move forward to trouble shooting possible noise makers / signal suckers. Your very first step is to complete and validate both sides of the split single phase electrical system is coupled / bridged via the 4 tap beacon test. The 4 tap beacon test is outlined in any dual band *Full Users Manual*. Once that has been confirmed you can move forward by plugging in the PLM into a long extension cord to validate the PLM isn't being impacted by something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdynak Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 Hi Teken.. Just a quick update.. I started to move the ISY to another location with an extension cord that is actually where all my switches, router and cable modem is (actually was here at one time). I initially plugged the PLM into the extension cord back to the outlet I had it in before so in reality not much would have changed from that standpoint. I figured just give it a shot from there and I was able to communicate to the one device. So from there I tried swapping the plug to a near outlet just to be sure that it would be ok there if I chose to leave it in this area (concerns of some kind of interference before). It worked ok in the local outlet also. So I went along and started to enable one by one and update, restore all devices and just finished. As of right now things seem pretty solid and I can control everything from the UI as well as at the device. I do find this very strange that everything did seem to be ok at least where it was but did notice some odd behavior once in a while and especially with my motion sensors flashing. So for now I'm going to leave the ISY and PLM in the area where it is working and see how things go. I really was starting to chalk this up to a bad ISY but your input really did get me to move it away.. I'm pretty sure I would have had another ISY in my hands shortly if it were not for you so I greatly appreciate you talking me off the ledge.. Fingers crossed it was a location issue. Overall, this system is not bad but with struggles like this and the amount of time spent I am hoping I can live with this unit and not have to consider alternatives (whatever that may even be) So.. finally.. I really appreciate your quick help as usual .. don't know what we would do with out you.. Will update should anything come up.. Thank you Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Hi Teken.. Just a quick update.. I started to move the ISY to another location with an extension cord that is actually where all my switches, router and cable modem is (actually was here at one time). I initially plugged the PLM into the extension cord back to the outlet I had it in before so in reality not much would have changed from that standpoint. I figured just give it a shot from there and I was able to communicate to the one device. So from there I tried swapping the plug to a near outlet just to be sure that it would be ok there if I chose to leave it in this area (concerns of some kind of interference before). It worked ok in the local outlet also. So I went along and started to enable one by one and update, restore all devices and just finished. As of right now things seem pretty solid and I can control everything from the UI as well as at the device. I do find this very strange that everything did seem to be ok at least where it was but did notice some odd behavior once in a while and especially with my motion sensors flashing. So for now I'm going to leave the ISY and PLM in the area where it is working and see how things go. I really was starting to chalk this up to a bad ISY but your input really did get me to move it away.. I'm pretty sure I would have had another ISY in my hands shortly if it were not for you so I greatly appreciate you talking me off the ledge.. Fingers crossed it was a location issue. Overall, this system is not bad but with struggles like this and the amount of time spent I am hoping I can live with this unit and not have to consider alternatives (whatever that may even be) So.. finally.. I really appreciate your quick help as usual .. don't know what we would do with out you.. Will update should anything come up.. Thank you Stan Hello Stan, Happy to hear things were added back fine with a little bit of struggle. I can not stress enough you must ensure you confirm you have proper coupling / bridging as explained in any dual band full users manual. The manual will explain what to do and expect when the 4 tap beacon test is initiated. If you have any dual band plugin units like a dimmer / relay modules these are much easier to place into the beacon mode. Essentially all you're doing is tapping the set button quickly four times. If you've done it correctly the device will beep and flash continuously for 4 minutes. You need only walk around the home and confirm any dual band device is blinking green. If the LED is blinking green it means the Insteon network has been coupled / bridged via RF signaling. Blinking green indicates both sides of the single split phase electrical system is bridged. If any dual band device is blinking red it simply means its on the *Same* electrical leg / side as the (Initiating) hardware. If a dual band device does not blink at all it indicates its too far, obstructed, or impacted by noise. Please keep in mind early single band devices will not react to the 4 tap beacon test. Also older dual band hardware that did not have the *Dual Colored LED's* will flash or offer a different acknowledgment ~ Hence its important to use the full users manual for that specific hardware. Lastly, once you confirmed proper coupling / bridging its imperative you identify any and all noise makers / signal suckers. Your choices are to remove, replace, filter what ever you can . . . NOTE: All the bridging / coupling in the world will not supersede the need to replace, remove, filter a noise maker / signal sucker. Hence its important to identify and address them accordingly. Rock On . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdynak Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 Hi Teken.. Thanks.. for sure this is going to be done. I want to be sure at least I'm somewhat stable and have something to work with. I have done the test a while ago and do have a coupler installed. Where I had the ISY in my laundry area I also have a grid tie inverter right next to it and my main panel. So I'm thinking that may not be the best location for the ISY given that alone. I moved it closer to the panel some time ago with some issues hoping it would help but it was nothing like what I just experienced. Never lost coms to everything except when I had a real PLM failure about a year ago I guess now. Thanks again Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Hi Teken.. Thanks.. for sure this is going to be done. I want to be sure at least I'm somewhat stable and have something to work with. I have done the test a while ago and do have a coupler installed. Where I had the ISY in my laundry area I also have a grid tie inverter right next to it and my main panel. So I'm thinking that may not be the best location for the ISY given that alone. I moved it closer to the panel some time ago with some issues hoping it would help but it was nothing like what I just experienced. Never lost coms to everything except when I had a real PLM failure about a year ago I guess now. Thanks again Stan Hello Stan, If you have a passive 240 coupler that installs in the breakers that is fine. If you confirm via the 4 tap beacon test that coupling is present via RF even better. As the passive coupler only relays the Insteon signal as is. Meaning if its degraded it will simply be exactly that. A dual band RF device will repeat and strengthen the original signal as it simulcasts through out the network. Lastly, if you have CFL, LED, Ballast fixtures be mindful they can also be the root cause . . . Circle back if things get worse / better! Rock On . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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