Looking for Best Practice: Set Up of KPL/Dimmer Switches to show correct LED Status?

[waffles]

First Case: 

 

Situation:

A KPL button is controller for a device - tied together via a Scene (A).

The same device is also part of another Scene (B ).

 

Goal:

If Scene (B )gets turned on, the KPL button also gets illuminated (status light), as the device gets turned on.

Correspondingly, the KPL status light in the button gets turned off if the device gets off.

 

 

 

Second Case:

 

Situation:

(2) dimmers control the same lamp: first dimmer is at bottom of the stairs, 2nd dimmer is on top of the stairs.

 

Goal:

Both dimmer 'LED status light rows' show the correct dimming status of the lamp.

 

 

So what is the best way to accomplish this?

 

Thanks!

[stusviews]

In each case, create a scene with both devices as Controllers. A device can be a controller of one and only one scene, but it can be a responder to many. They'll appear in red in the scene. BTW, for the ISY, a controller is also a responder, but a responder is never a controller. Responders in scenes appear in blue.

 

In the First Case, above, why do you have two scenes?

[waffles]

Thanks Stu.

 

Maybe I was not very clear. Please let me try again and let's focus only on the first case for now:

 

I have a single device (ApplianceLinc). 

This device is (directly) controlled by a KPL button (scene with the device as only responder to the KPL button)

The same device is also part of another scene, controlled by a different controller (actually it's also controlled by a program).

 

I'd like to use the KPL button illumination as status indicator for the device (on/off).

 

Hope this is clearer.

[stusviews]

Why are you using a program? The usual method, if two devices each control a third device, is to have each device a controller of the same scene in which the third device is a responder.

 

BTW, it would be clearer if you specified which device is which (as you did for two of the devices) instead of "this device" or "that device" or "the device."

 

If you want a KPL button to be controlled by a program, have the program turn on the scene that the referred to button is a member of. If you want only the button controlled and not the other members of that scene, then create a scene with only the referred to button as a responder and turn on that scene.

 

I can be clearer if you specified each device, which are controllers and which are responders and also post the program (right click on the program name and select Copy to Clipboard).

[waffles]

Hope that doesn't get too complicated.... Here we go:

 

 

I am trying to control a coffee bean grinder (Mazzer) on ApplicanceLinc via a KPL (8x CB...):

- KPL CB-F is controller for the grinder in a Scene: on/off 

- KPL CB-H is to launch a program to let the grinder run for 26 seconds (right amount of coffee for a double-shot of espresso)

- KPL CB-G is to launch a program to let the grinder run for 17 seconds (right amount of coffee for a single-shot of espresso)

 

 

The idea is that, e.g. when double-shot programs runs, the button CB-H, but also the button CF-F is lit. 

 

Below seems to be working OK, but it looks rather complicated. I wonder if this couldn't be accomplished in a simpler way.

 

=====================================

 

Program 1:

 

Mazzer-Grinder-double shot - [iD 0016][Parent 0043]

 

If

        Control '8x CB-A--LivingCeiling / 8x CB-H--Mazzer-double-shot' is switched On

 

Then

        Set 'Mazzer' On

        $Mazzer  = 1

        Wait  26 seconds

        Set 'Mazzer' Off

        $Mazzer  = 0

        Set Scene 'Status KP / Status CB / SC 8x CB F Status Mazzer' Off

        Set Scene 'Status KP / Status CB / SC 8x CB G Status Single Shot' Off

        Set Scene 'Status KP / Status CB / SC 8x CB H Status Double Shot' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

=============================

 

Program 2

 

 

Mazzer-Grinder-single shot - [iD 0029][Parent 0043]

 

If

        Control '8x CB-A--LivingCeiling / 8x CB-G--Mazzer-single-shot' is switched On

 

Then

        Set 'Mazzer' On

        $Mazzer  = 1

        Wait  17 seconds

        Set 'Mazzer' Off

        $Mazzer  = 0

        Set Scene 'Status KP / Status CB / SC 8x CB F Status Mazzer' Off

        Set Scene 'Status KP / Status CB / SC 8x CB G Status Single Shot' Off

        Set Scene 'Status KP / Status CB / SC 8x CB H Status Double Shot' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

=================================

 

Program 3  

 

Query Mazzer - [iD 0024][Parent 0043]

 

If

        $Mazzer is 1

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Status KP / Status CB / SC 8x CB F Status Mazzer' On

 

Else

        Set Scene 'Status KP / Status CB / SC 8x CB F Status Mazzer' Off

 

=================================================

 

[oberkc]

I think like stusviews in this case. Create a single scene with F, H, and G as controllers and appliancelinc as responder. Adjust responder levels independently for each of the three controllers. As an example, for controller F, rsponder levels G and H are set to zero. For controller G, responder F set to on, and respnder G set to zero. Do similar for controller H.

 

Then use programs triggered by G and H to turn off scene after appropriate time.

 

There may even be value in configuring buttons G and H as non-toggle ON.

[stusviews]

Set buttons G and H to non-Toggle On.

 

Add button G as a controller of scene Single_Shot

Add button H as a controller of scene Double_Shot

Add the ApplianceLinc as a reponder to both scenes.

 

Mazzer-Grinder-single shot

If

        Control '8x CB-A--LivingCeiling / 8x CB-G--Mazzer-single-shot' is switched On

 

Then

        Set 'Mazzer' On

        Wait  17 seconds

        Set Scene 'Single_Shot' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

Mazzer-Grinder-double shot

If

        Control '8x CB-A--LivingCeiling / 8x CB-H--Mazzer-double-shot' is switched On

 

Then

        Set 'Mazzer' On

        Wait  26 seconds

        Set Scene 'Double_Shot' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

[waffles]

I implemented oberck settings, incl. setting G and H to non-Toggle On. I tested (2) scenarios for the Scene level settings. 

 

Here are my findings:

 

 

Scenario 1

 

Scene level setting:

 

F On Level 100

G On Level 0

H On Level 0

Mazzer On Level 100

 

=> pressing F, turns on MAZZER and F lights up, while G and H stay dark   ++++ OK

=> pressing G, turns on MAZZER and F lights up, G lights up for a few seconds, while H stays dark completely    ++++ NOK =>   I want to for G to stay on for the total time its program runs 

=> pressing H, turns on MAZZER and F lights up, H lights up for a few seconds, while G stays dark completely    ++++ NOK =>   I want to for H to stay on for the total time its program runs 

 

 

 

Scenario 2

 

Scene level setting:

 

F On Level 100

G On Level 100

H On Level 100

Mazzer On Level 100

 

=> pressing F, turns on MAZZER and F lights up, while G and H stay dark   ++++ OK

=> pressing G, turns on MAZZER and F lights up, G lights up for for the total time the program runs, while H comes on after a few seconds    ++++ NOK =>   I want to for H to stay dark for the entire time 

=> pressing H, turns on MAZZER and F lights up, H lights up for for the total time the program runs, while G comes on after a few seconds    ++++ NOK =>   I want to for G to stay dark for the entire time 

 

 

What do I need to do to get the responses I want?

 

(I have not had a chance to test stu's suggestion.)

[oberkc]

You must also establish correct responder levels for each of the controllers in the scene...not just the scene level.  When you press buttons F, G, and H, reponders will comply with levels for each of the controller buttons which may or may not be same as scene level or as each other.  

 

With your mouse, click on button F within the scene.  What are the responder levels for the other devices?  Are they different than the scene levels?  Make them what you want.  Do the same for buttons G and H.

[stusviews]

F, G and H are keypad secondary buttons, so the have no setting for an On-Level. The responder device is an ApplianceLinc which also has no On-Level setting, On or Off, that's it.

[waffles]

You must also establish correct responder levels for each of the controllers in the scene...not just the scene level.  When you press buttons F, G, and H, reponders will comply with levels for each of the controller buttons which may or may not be same as scene level or as each other.  

 

With your mouse, click on button F within the scene.  What are the responder levels for the other devices?  Are they different than the scene levels?  Make them what you want.  Do the same for buttons G and H.

 

 

Here is how I have set them (I did not change between the scenarios above):

 

Button F: 

 

G On Level 0

H On Level 0

Mazzer on Level 100

 

 

 

Button G:  

 

F On Level 100

H On Level 0

Mazzer on Level 100

 

 

 

Button H:  

 

F On Level 100

G On Level 0

Mazzer on Level 100

[oberkc]

That looks consistent with your stated goals to me.

 

If you are still getting results consistent with post #8, I would consider the possibility that you still have some of your existing programs are affecting button operation.  Are your existing programs still active?  If so, delete them.  Then, create a couple of simple programs:

 

if

control button H is turned on

then

wait 26 seconds

turn off scene

else

nothing

 

If 

control button G is turned on

then

wait 17 seconds

turn off scene

else

nothing

[waffles]

I think I got it now!  I truly appreciate all the hand holding the both of you have been doing!

 

 

 

I had my old programs already deactivated, but the new ones not yet 'pruned' enough. 

 

 

before:

 

Mazzer-Grinder-double shot Copy - [iD 000B][Parent 0043][Not Enabled]

 

If

        Control '8x CB-A--LivingCeiling / 8x CB-H--Mazzer-double-shot' is switched On

 

Then

        Set Scene 'KP Coffee Bar / mazzer 1' On

        Wait  26 seconds

        Set Scene 'KP Coffee Bar / mazzer 1' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

 

I took off the red highlighted part, so now it's:

 

Mazzer-Grinder-double shot Copy Copy - [iD 0026][Parent 0043]

 

If

        Control '8x CB-A--LivingCeiling / 8x CB-H--Mazzer-double-shot' is switched On

 

Then

        Wait  26 seconds

        Set Scene 'KP Coffee Bar / mazzer 1' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

 

It now seems to work as expected.

 

For reference, here are the Scene level settings again - unchanged since above:

 

F On Level 100

G On Level 100

H On Level 100

Mazzer On Level 100

 

 

 

 

===============================

===============================

 

On to the next challenge: Variation of the original Second Case:

 

Situation:

(2) dimmers control the same lamp: first dimmer (A) is at bottom of the stairs and is wired to the lamp, 2nd dimmer (B ) is on top of the stairs (no load is physically connected).  

 

Goal:

Both dimmer 'LED status light rows' show the correct dimming status of the lamp, independent of which dimmer was used.

 

 

=================

 

Next progression is that if the lamp (, i.e. the dimmer (A)) gets turned on by another instance (program, scene, etc.) the LED status light of dimmer (B ) changes correspondingly.  

 

 

What's the best way to accomplish that? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oberkc]

Accomplish this entirely with scenes. Afd.both dimmera to a scene, both as controllers. Pay attention to the responder rates are comsistent for both controllers. To activate via program, be sure to activate via the scene, rather than by one of the switches.

[waffles]

I ran into a snag with my grinder.....

I noticed it when I wanted to make me a 'victory espresso', which I feel I have earned after all that hard work here...

 

 

I have Amazon's Alexa set up to run these programs. However, they now no longer work, as the "Then..." part of a program contains what Alexa triggers.

 

Since my programs now no longer contain "Set Scene 'KP Coffee Bar / mazzer 1' On" the grinder does not get turned on.  

 

How can I fix this, without breaking the other parts again?

 

 

 

 

Mazzer-Grinder-double shot Copy Copy - [iD 0026][Parent 0043]

 

If

        Control '8x CB-A--LivingCeiling / 8x CB-H--Mazzer-double-shot' is switched On

 

Then

        Wait  26 seconds

        Set Scene 'KP Coffee Bar / mazzer 1' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

[oberkc]

I am mostly unfamiliar with what the echo can do with insteon.  Clearly it can run a program.  Can it turn on devices?  Scenes?  Multiple things in response to a voice command?

 

You may have to break the single scene into three: on, single shot, and double shot.  On has F as controller and G/H as responder, set to zero on level.  Single shot has G as controller and F/H (100%/0)as responder.  Double shot has H as controller and F/G (100%/0) as responder.  Use the same response levels at the scene level, also.

 

My temptation, after that, would be to create a couple of Alexa-specific programs.  One would look something like:

 

if

nothing

then

turn on double-shot scene

run Mazzer-Grinder-double shot (then path)

 

The other would be similar and I leave it to you to figure out.

[waffles]

oberkc,

 

I followed your instructions and ......it works!  woohoo!

 

 

(echo can run programs, control devices and scenes (and more). For multiple things, I believe it is best to create a program that includes these 'multiple things' (I am also still very, very new to echo)) 

[oberkc]

oberkc,

 

I followed your instructions and ......it works!  woohoo!

 

 

(echo can run programs, control devices and scenes (and more). For multiple things, I believe it is best to create a program that includes these 'multiple things' (I am also still very, very new to echo)) 

 

Nicely done.  I hope the logic is coming together in your mind regarding scenes, responders, controllers, etc...

 

Thanks for the education on the echo.  I actually have one, and am considering the spot when it becomes available.  I remain uncertain whether I like voice commands and having to remember specific syntax, so I don't do a lot with it.  Mostly, I use it to turn on my TV and one hue light.

[stusviews]

oberkc, which TV?

 

The Echo syntax is relatively straight forward, you can say, "Alexa, turn the light on," or "Alexa, turn on the light," both are equally effective--for the most part. On occasion one sequence won't work, but the other will. You can even eliminate "the." in your command (i.e., "Alexa, turn on light.")

 

Also, using "open' and "close" instead of "off" and "on" will work with one program and not with another. No rhyme or reason why that occurs. But you can fix that by using the smartphone app, so it's really no longer a concern.

 

I have a lot of programs that have no conditionals, mostly for control of devices that require a program, such as controlling window coverings. "On" runs Then and "Off" runs else. With the smartphone app, I can use open and close.

 

You can use Izzy to run a program with conditionals or you can have Then run the program.

[waffles]

I recently got a bunch of echo 2nd gen, but also have a Spot on order. More for the fun of it...

 

I pretty much have the syntax down by now, but I really appreciate that the ISY web portal allows me to register a multiple 'Alternate Spokens'. Looking at my track record, I really seem to need them

[oberkc]

oberkc, which TV?​

 

It has varied, but right now it is a small Roku TV.  The echo controls it via the harmony remote control.

 

With regards to the echo, I guess I just don't value enough voice control to put the effort into optimizing it.  For the things I desire to control, I find conventional methods of control equally as convenient (if not more so).

[stusviews]

It has varied, but right now it is a small Roku TV.  The echo controls it via the harmony remote control.

 

So, it's not actually the TV you're controlling, but an add-on. I asked because Sony TVs are now Echo compatible.

 

With regards to the echo, I guess I just don't value enough voice control to put the effort into optimizing it.  For the things I desire to control, I find conventional methods of control equally as convenient (if not more so).

 

Not if your hands are full and you need to turn on a light. But the main advantage of voice control is, IMO, fun, not unlike HA. But, you are correct. Like HA, there is some effort required. I find the effort not just worth it, but fun as well. I rarely, if ever, use a switch or button. I don't even remember the last time I used one of my six 2440 RemoteLincs

[oberkc]

 I asked because Sony TVs are now Echo compatible.

 

Good to know.

Not if your hands are full and you need to turn on a light. But the main advantage of voice control is, IMO, fun, not unlike HA. But, you are correct. Like HA, there is some effort required. I find the effort not just worth it, but fun as well. I rarely, if ever, use a switch or button. I don't even remember the last time I used one of my six 2440 RemoteLincs ​

 

Yeah, I suppose.  Fortunately, I have enough automation with motion and doors and location that this is rarely the case.  I am sure I would find it interesting and fun as well, but I have too many other hobbies and find myself wanting to play golf, play in the wood shop, and do some other projects around the house.  

[stusviews]

Good to know.

Yeah, I suppose.  Fortunately, I have enough automation with motion and doors and location that this is rarely the case.

 

I'm in the same position with automation, so I readily agree with you that more automation is not needed. But, I believe that you'll agree that your start with automation was more due to that you could do it than because it was a necessity. And from that start, your automation network grew because you enjoyed both doing it and using it.

 

I am sure I would find it interesting and fun as well, but I have too many other hobbies and find myself wanting to play golf, play in the wood shop, and do some other projects around the house.  

 

That you actually bothered to control you TV by voice suggests that there's a lot of fun awaiting. Ahh, an advantage of retirement. I'm so busy now that I wonder how I had time to work

[oberkc]

Th

at you actually bothered to control you TV by voice suggests that there's a lot of fun awaiting. Ahh, an advantage of retirement. I'm so busy now that I wonder how I had time to work ​

 

Well, I already had a couple of Harmony Hubs in use around the house.  Controlling them via the Echo was pretty simple.

 

Like you, it seems I have less time now, after "retirement" than I did before.  All that time I thought I would have seems nowhere to be found.