Disable MS II motion sensing during defined hours

[jlloyd_UD]

I integrated a new Insteon Switch (2477S) and a motion sensor II (2844-222) into a single light circuit with motion on and time out into my ISY994i with installed firmware 4.6.2.  Coincidentally, I saw something where control of MSII is not complete until version 5.x.x whenever that will be.  My simple circuit works but I would like to disable the motion sensing during a block of hours, for example, between 11 PM and dawn.  I wrote a simple program but am not sure it is properly written as it does not disable the light from illuminating during the period I want it disabled.  Is there a way to do this with ISY994i and the current lack of capability for the new MS II sensor?  By program or otherwise? 

 

Additional Background:  I have an older MS (2420M, 1909 rev 1.1) that has no adjustable timeout so I bought the new one only to find it seems to be no different.  The MS II seems to have a fixed timeout of about 1 minute; the older one stays on for much longer and never seemed to time out. (Always stayed on even with the proper jumper 4 unbridged). I think the older MS was supposed to timeout at 1 minute also with jumper 4 unbridged.  I performed several factory resets on the older MS before resorting to purchasing the new MS II.

[larryllix]

It is usually better to disabe all the jumpers except for #5 to allow ISY to set the options, disable the Off signal and ignore any timing built into the Insteon MS.

 

A few workarounds have been found for disabling the MS to Lamp with a direct Insteon connection (scene).

- dim the lamp level so it cannot be detected as On.

- set a long ramp on speed for the MS/lamp scene and beat if out with a programmed Fast Off.

 

https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/17495-how-to-use-a-ms-with-lights-for-faster-response/?hl=faster

 

IIRC v5 has a disable function built into the ISY language, now.

[oberkc]

If, on the other hand, you are willing to rely on programs entirely rather than a scene (programs can introduce a perceptible delay (about 1sec) in response to motion) then the solution is a little more straight-forward.

 

First, set jumpers as per larryllix suggestion.  Second, ensure that the motion sensor is NOT a scene controller.  Third, create a program such as (depending on need):

 

if

control motion sensor is turned on

and

time is from dawn to 11pm

then

turn on light

wait a period of time

turn off light

else

turn off light

[jlloyd_UD]

I have no jumpers on the Motion Sensor II; only on the older motion sensor.  I have written the program for my MS II and will monitor the reaction after 11 PM this evening to see if the Motion Sensor is disabled and the light is not commanded on.  If that does not work I will go back to the older MS to see if I can implement the scene solution.  Thanks for both responses.

[oberkc]

I understand that the motion sensor II is not fully implemented yet (due to lack of interface definition).  For now, the program solution should work just fine, so long that you can see ON commands from the sensor at the times that you want motion to trigger an event.

[jlloyd_UD]

I tried my program last evening and the motion sensor triggered the light after 11 PM.  How exactly do I address the motions sensor in the program logic?  I have three separate identities for the motion sensor in my lighting list 1) MB Motion dusk-dawn  2) MB Motion low bat and 3 ) MB Motion sensor.  When I wrote my logic as you suggested, where you say If "control motion sensor" is turned ON my logic says, If   status 'MB Motion sensor' is ON

 

Should there not be a line statement that commands the motion sensor to off or disabled during the times I do not want to trigger the light?  Again, this is a Motion Sensor II and no jumpers are involved.  DO I need to use the program approach with my older Motion Sensor until interfaces are defined?

[oberkc]

I would use "control" rather than "status".  

 

It appears that you used the correct "node: (which is "motion sensor").  The Low battery node will trigger when the battery is low.  The Dusk-Dawn node will trigger based upon ambient light.

 

No, there need not be a command to turn off the motion sensor.  In fact, one CANNOT turn off a motion sensor.

 

Did you ensure you have not added the motion sensor as part of a scene?

 

I cannot speculate on why your program did not work.  Feel free to post it and we can look and see something.

[jlloyd_UD]

I made the change from "status" to "control" and noticed one other important omission.  I left out the turn off the light after 2 minutes command.  I have now corrected both problems and the logic looks like what I am attaching in the snipping attached.  I'll test it again this evening.  I knew that you cannot command the motion sensor to stop but I thought you could negate its command to switch on the light.  An interrupt of sorts.  Thanks for helping me troubleshoot.

[larryllix]

I made the change from "status" to "control" and noticed one other important omission.  I left out the turn off the light after 2 minutes command.  I have now corrected both problems and the logic looks like what I am attaching in the snipping attached.  I'll test it again this evening.  I knew that you cannot command the motion sensor to stop but I thought you could negate its command to switch on the light.  An interrupt of sorts.  Thanks for helping me troubleshoot.

Note you can right click on your program in the program tree, select copy, and paste it in the forum posts.

[jlloyd_UD]

I tried the copy program line and paste but all it did was replicate the program as a program line copy and I was unable to paste its content to the Forum.  That would be a nice feature to use if I can figure it out.  I did the right click method and it replicated but would not right click paste the content into the Forum block  I also did a control C method but it only copied the title of the program.  Off topic but of interest to me.

[stusviews]

I tried the copy program line and paste but all it did was replicate the program as a program line copy and I was unable to paste its content to the Forum.  That would be a nice feature to use if I can figure it out.  I did the right click method and it replicated but would not right click paste the content into the Forum block  I also did a control C method but it only copied the title of the program.  Off topic but of interest to me.

 

After right clicking, did you select, "Copy to Clipboard?"

[larryllix]

I tried the copy program line and paste but all it did was replicate the program as a program line copy and I was unable to paste its content to the Forum.  That would be a nice feature to use if I can figure it out.  I did the right click method and it replicated but would not right click paste the content into the Forum block  I also did a control C method but it only copied the title of the program.  Off topic but of interest to me.

There could be two things I can think of.

- You may not have enough posts to paste things (troll and spam control)

- Try the Code paste box by clicking on the '<>' option above the text entry box.

[jlloyd_UD]

I see the option near the bottom: Export to Clipboard  I did that and here is what results after a paste:
 
<?xml version="1.0" ?><triggers><d2d><trigger><id>10</id><name>MB Shower</name><parent>1</parent><if><and /><schedule><from><sunrise>0</sunrise></from><to><time>82800</time></to></schedule><and /><device><node>4A 45 BF 1</node><op>=</op><control>DON</control></device></if><then><device><node>46 11 EF 1</node><control>DON</control></device><wait><minutes>2</minutes></wait><device><node>46 11 EF 1</node><control>DOF</control><action>0</action></device></then><else><device><node>46 11 EF 1</node><control>DOF</control><action>0</action></device></else><comment></comment></trigger></d2d></triggers>
 
Even when I try to paste it as plain text.  I can pick out the program steps but it is not exactly listed as plain English as listed on the program content.  Is this how export to clipboard works when the content is pasted?

[oberkc]

I made the change from "status" to "control" and noticed one other important omission.  I left out the turn off the light after 2 minutes command.  I have now corrected both problems and the logic looks like what I am attaching in the snipping attached.  I'll test it again this evening.  I knew that you cannot command the motion sensor to stop but I thought you could negate its command to switch on the light.  An interrupt of sorts.  Thanks for helping me troubleshoot.

 

If your motion sensor triggers the lights on after 11pm and before sunrise, it is not because of the program.

 

Twice I have mentioned the need to ensure that the motion sensor is not a controller in a scene.  Do you understand this?  Do you know how to confirm this?  Have you confirmed this?

[jlloyd_UD]

Answers to your questions:  Not completely.  No and No. 

 

 

I have not totally disregarded your warnings about scenes but have not heeded them either.  I will try to verify whether I have a scene or not now.  However, I was able to check my revised programming last evening.  The program works more like it should but not exactly how I want it yet because after 11 PM the light briefly comes on but then shuts off after a couple of seconds and then stays off.  I am seeking  for the light to stay completely off (not momentarily come on and then extinguish) between 11 PM and sunrise of the next day but it is better than it was.  I will look for whether this motion sensor and relay (both newly installed from the box) are set up in a scene. If so, I did not intentionally set up the scene.  I think the refinements to the program are getting me closer to my goal.  I do need to better understand the concept of scenes.  I have tinkered with scenes recently in setting up a fanlinc in a completely different circuit.  I finally got the fanlinc to work the way I want using Alexa and voice commands and the ISY portal. I will freely admit I do not fully understand what I know about it but can eventually get things to work following instructions from several sources. Thanks for bearing with me.

[oberkc]

Scenes, if there, cannot be stopped or suspended by programs.  I do not believe your program would cause the light to come on after 11, so I cannot help but suspect there is something else going on, whether another program or a scene.  

 

From the admin panel, select your motion sensor.  Along the right, it will show you any scene of which it is a part. Let us know what you find out.

 

If it is not part of any scene, check to see if other programs are triggered by the motion sensor.

[larryllix]

Answers to your questions:  Not completely.  No and No. 

 

 

I have not totally disregarded your warnings about scenes but have not heeded them either.  I will try to verify whether I have a scene or not now.  However, I was able to check my revised programming last evening.  The program works more like it should but not exactly how I want it yet because after 11 PM the light briefly comes on but then shuts off after a couple of seconds and then stays off.  I am seeking  for the light to stay completely off (not momentarily come on and then extinguish) between 11 PM and sunrise of the next day but it is better than it was.  I will look for whether this motion sensor and relay (both newly installed from the box) are set up in a scene. If so, I did not intentionally set up the scene.  I think the refinements to the program are getting me closer to my goal.  I do need to better understand the concept of scenes.  I have tinkered with scenes recently in setting up a fanlinc in a completely different circuit.  I finally got the fanlinc to work the way I want using Alexa and voice commands and the ISY portal. I will freely admit I do not fully understand what I know about it but can eventually get things to work following instructions from several sources. Thanks for bearing with me.

Go to the bottom of your devices in admin console and see if any Scene exists that contains The MS and/or the device. This would be a scene you created using ISY as a scene manager.

 

To eliminate any scenes created without ISY scene management, right click on each device and select "restore" Battery devices have to be placed into "Linking mode" first,

[jlloyd_UD]

I have not created any scene using these two newly installed devices.  I added the relay and the motion sensor II and linked both addresses as devices in the ISY controller and then set up the single program to try to disable the command for turning on the light after 11 PM and before sunrise.  I am attaching a screenshot  of my motion sensor and its set device options which also show no evidence of scenes

[oberkc]

Outstanding!  A couple of other options to investigate:

 

1) does your program have any unsaved changes?  (When the program is highlighted, look for the little green arrow bottom left.)

2) is there another program causing the light to go on unexpected?  (What happens if you disable this program?  Do you see any programs being triggered at the same time when you look at the program summary page?)

[jlloyd_UD]

1) the program has no unsaved changes.  I have closed and opened it and saved changes with no effect.

2) I have no other programs that use this light as a responder.  I disabled the only program I wrote for the control of the Motion Sensor comm with the switch relay.  I do not sense any other programs being triggered.

 

Looking back at the program I am trying to replicate, the plain English terminology is "turn off light"  Is this the same as in my program logic "Insteon set "Shower light MB" off?  Where Shower light MB is my Insteon Model 2477S on/off relay switch?

Does the "set" off  command for the relay freeze out any command sent from the Motion Sensor?

 

I will try it again tonight but suspect there will be no change with what I did today.

[oberkc]

the plain English terminology is "turn off light"  Is this the same as in my program logic "Insteon set "Shower light MB" off?​

 

The plain English terminology was because I did not know the exact names of the devices involved and hoped you could interpret that correctly.  Your program (then path) should turn on whatever device is "shower light MB" on, wait two minutes, then turn the same device off.  Is this what you want in response to motion (from sunrise to 11pm)?  If so, then this program is correct.

 

Does the "set" off  command for the relay freeze out any command sent from the Motion Sensor?

The "set off" command simply turns off the device called "shower light MB".  It has no effect on the motion sensor.  One cannot "freeze out" commands from the motion sensor, short of removing it from the ISY or removing the battery.  The motion sensor commands come always, based on configuration you have set for it.  You cannot turn a motion sensor on or off.  The motion sensor will do what it does.  This is why using scenes here won't work.  Scenes are direct links between two or more insteon devices and any device linked to the motion sensor will turn on when the motion sensor sends an ON command.  And, to repeat, there is no way to temporarily disable a motion sensor.

 

The whole purpose here is to use a program as an intermediary between the motion sensor and the responder devices.  There is no scenes between the motion sensor and responder devices.  There is no wiring between the motion sensor and responder devices.  Using aprogram gives you the ability to decide how and when to respond to your motion sensor, when it sends the ON commands.  Sometimes (between sunrise and 11pm) you want something to happen.  Other times (between 11pm and sunrise next day) you want nothing to happen.  

 

In the end, the program you posted will trigger at sunrise, at 11pm, and any time the motion sensor sends an ON command.  Once triggered, it will evaluate based on the total logic in the condition.  If triggered between 11pm and sunrise, it will ALWAYS evaluate FALSE, and run the ELSE path.  When triggered at sunrise and 11pm, it will always evaluate false (lack of simultaneous ON command from the sensor).  When triggered by ON commands between sunrise and 11pm, it will evaluate true (and run the THEN path).  If your lights (shower light MB) are coming on between 11pm and sunrise next day, it is NOT because of this program.

 

I can suggest again that you disable this program to see how this changes things.  If you disable the program, and force motion in front of the sensor, what happens?  Do the lights come on?  I suppose it is possible that there are links between the motion sensor and shower light MB that are unknown to you or to the ISY.  (There are stories of devices coming from smarthome that have residual links.  Or...links were created with another hub, or manually somewhere along the life of the two devices.)  Perhaps it is time to remove the motion sensor and shower light from the ISY, perform a factory reset on both (clearing out any possible links), and re-add. Short of that, you could "restore" both devices and see if that helps.

 

If you are in doubt about your program, you can manually trigger the condition (right click>>run (if)), or run either action (then or else).  When you do this, does it perform as you expect?  Manually trigger the condition (run (if)) after 11pm.  Does the shower light MB come on? 

[larryllix]

I have not created any scene using these two newly installed devices.  I added the relay and the motion sensor II and linked both addresses as devices in the ISY controller and then set up the single program to try to disable the command for turning on the light after 11 PM and before sunrise.  I am attaching a screenshot  of my motion sensor and its set device options which also show no evidence of scenes

These are only scenes that ISY is aware of. Scenes created on the side (manually at the devices) will not show in that ISY display. Nice V5? feature though.

[jlloyd_UD]

I might have finally understood the situation.  When I set up this control circuit, I added the two Insteon devices by address and then  I linked the switch to the motion sensor II by manually setting the linkage totally independent from the ISY programming feature.  I then programmed the circuit to come on with motion only during the day up until 11 pm and then not come on from 11 pm to sunrise.  I think I have got it to run that way now by breaking the manually set linkage (ie. remove switchlinc as a responder to Motion Sensor II).  Now I believe I have the relationship ONLY controlled by the program and in testing it seems to work that way.  Being bold, I created two bands of time frames where the light will come on with motion outside the 11 PM to dawn -1 hour time frame where the Motion Sensor will not command the switch to turn on the light.  My wife will be happy if this now works this way.  Tonight after 11 PM if my wife visits the bathroom and the light does not come on, I will have succeeded.  I did notice that if I manually turn on the light it will stay on without motion but after 5 minutes any motion will shut the light off.  Is that a proper response?  Should I not be able to manually light the circuit for as long as I need it?  Or do I need to add some additional logic?

 

By the way, I went back and restored both devices making sure the MS II was in set mode after I had done a factory reset to clear any extraneous conditions on the devices.  I will let you know how things work tomorrow but as of right now the light is remaining off at 2:30 PM when the sun has illuminated that bathroom and needs no artificial lighting.  Keeping my fingers crossed but I do appreciate the coaching assistance.  I think I understand better what I am doing now.  BTW the manual linking of sensor and receptor ... is that equivalent to a "scene" even though it is not an ISY scene?

[larryllix]

You will need some additional logic depending on what your programs do.

 

Post your programs. Guessing is too hard.

[oberkc]

I did notice that if I manually turn on the light it will stay on without motion but after 5 minutes any motion will shut the light off.  Is that a proper response? ​

 

Yes, as expected.  Since the only thing that would turn it off is your program, and that program is triggered only by motion, then motion is a necessary condition for it to turn off automatically.

 

Or do I need to add some additional logic?​

 

You would need additional logic to force the light to stay on when manually activated.  Yes.  Sounds like a good intellectual exercise.

 

BTW the manual linking of sensor and receptor ... is that equivalent to a "scene" even though it is not an ISY scene?

 

It is, basically, the same thing, accomplished in two different ways.  Smarthome used to call these scenes.  Perhaps they still do.  I think I have seen them called links.  Unless you are a real insteon geek, best leave the scene creation to ISY.