Phrase alexa set bedroom to 50%

[toddhutch]

Good evening,

 

I'm really enjoying the Alexa integration.  I have a scene containing all LampLincs, the problem is that while I can say "Alexa dim bedroom" (A Scene) and that works and I can say "Alexa set night stand to 50%" (A device) and that works.  Trying to set a scene to a number doesn't.  Alexa acknowledges the command, but nothing happens.  I don't see any events coming through in the event viewer for the scene when trying to dim. 

 

Is this a bug, or not supported?

 

Best regards,

Todd

[ScottAvery]

You cannot set a scene to a level.  It is an Insteon protocol issue, as well as one of practicality.  A scene can have many different on levels for the devices in it, to include all off, so a value for a scene would not have any consistent meaning.

 

You can work around it by having an Alexa group of the individual devices.

[toddhutch]

@ScottAvery

 

I'm surprised that you can't do a group dim to a level using Insteon and ISY994i.  The Alexa group allows you to set brightness levels, thank you Scott.

 

It's an ugly effect, as it just switches the brightness for each lamp one at a time.

Edited January 11, 2018 by toddhutch

[stusviews]

@ScottAvery

 

I'm surprised that you can't do a group dim to a level using Insteon and ISY994i.  The Alexa group allows you to set brightness levels, thank you Scott.

 

It's an ugly effect, as it just switches the brightness for each lamp one at a time.

 

Which Alexa group, the smartphone app or the computer app? In any case, the Insteon protcol does not allow setting the brightness of a scene, because the meaning is ambiguous. There are differing opinions of what adjusting a scene (not device) brightness means, but opinions do not resolve ambiguity.

 

I have no difficulty adjusting a scene using the Alexa computer app group that includes the scene and devices involved, but that results in only one interpretation. Fortunately, it's the one I prefer

 

If you normally use only two or three levels, then the easiest method is two or three scenes. That's not unlike fan speeds.

[giomania]

You can ask Alexa to “dim [A scene]”, but it only works at some small percentage each time, so you may need to keep repeating it to get the desired effect.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

I always use this vocal  syntax. 

• "Alexa. Turn On XXXX  <to 50%>"  <...> optional
• "Alexa. Turn Off XXXX"

[stusviews]

 

I always use this vocal  syntax. 

• "Alexa. Turn On XXXX  <to 50%>"  <...> optional
• "Alexa. Turn Off XXXX"

 

 

That'll work to control a device, but not a scene, except a noted in pose #4.

[ScottAvery]

You can ask Alexa to “dim [A scene]”, but it only works at some small percentage each time, so you may need to keep repeating it to get the desired effect.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Alexa should be dimming by 9%.  The default Insteon dim pulse is 3%, and by popular request in this forum when the portal was first published, Benoit experimented and found that he could issue 3 consecutive 3% pulses in within the timeout period for an Alexa call, so that is what we have.  3% works for a computer interface, but it was unwieldy for a voice interface.

[ScottAvery]

@ScottAvery

 

I'm surprised that you can't do a group dim to a level using Insteon and ISY994i.  The Alexa group allows you to set brightness levels, thank you Scott.

 

It's an ugly effect, as it just switches the brightness for each lamp one at a time.

 

If you think about it logically, the ISY would actually have to do the same thing.  A as scene in the protocol is a preset level programmed into each device for each controller in the scene so that each device knows how to respond when a particular controller calls for the scene.  The ISY knows these levels because it stores them, like metadata in a database, but when they are executed they are called with a single Insteon command.  THe responses are pre-distributed when the updates are written to the network, which you surely have noticed can take quite a while.  The ISY would have to calculate the meaning of the level you sent and either write out a new scene to every device then call it simultaneously, or instead manually set each device to the requested level in a one-at-a-time operation.  both options are clunky.

 

Beating my favorite dead horse, this is all a result of Insteon's authors declaring "lighting preset" and "lighting group" to be one and the same.

[toddhutch]

Good afternoon,

 

While I understand what has been explained about how it does it. I don't except that just because there are multiple ways to interpret a request, a feature shouldn't be implemented.  This is a knock on the protocol.

 

I expect that everyone would say having a whole room start dimming at the same time, is a completely different experience then having each device in a room start dimming one after another.  The later seems very ameature and unpolished, and it would be out of place in a multimillion dollar home.

 

Does any of the other protocols deal with the concept of dimming a "scene" or a group of device in the way that seems professional?  Z-Wave?

 

Best regards,

Todd

[asbril]

Good afternoon,

 

While I understand what has been explained about how it does it. I don't except that just because there are multiple ways to interpret a request, a feature shouldn't be implemented.  This is a knock on the protocol.

 

I expect that everyone would say having a whole room start dimming at the same time, is a completely different experience then having each device in a room start dimming one after another.  The later seems very ameature and unpolished, and it would be out of place in a multimillion dollar home.

 

Does any of the other protocols deal with the concept of dimming a "scene" or a group of device in the way that seems professional?  Z-Wave?

 

Best regards,

Todd

Todd, this may not exactly resolve your issue, but you could create programs setting the lights at a certain percentage. In Google Home you could even create shortcuts with useful names for such programs.

[ScottAvery]

Good afternoon,

 

While I understand what has been explained about how it does it. I don't except that just because there are multiple ways to interpret a request, a feature shouldn't be implemented.  This is a knock on the protocol.

 

I expect that everyone would say having a whole room start dimming at the same time, is a completely different experience then having each device in a room start dimming one after another.  The later seems very ameature and unpolished, and it would be out of place in a multimillion dollar home.

 

Does any of the other protocols deal with the concept of dimming a "scene" or a group of device in the way that seems professional?  Z-Wave?

 

Best regards,

Todd

 

I believe it is a fair knock on the protocol given that it is a result of forcing presets and groups into one solution.  INsteon was created to operate without a controller, so it falls short when a powerful controller is in the mix.

[ScottAvery]

That said, you can get around it by creating more scenes. 10% 30% 50% 100% ought to do it

[stusviews]

Good afternoon,

 

While I understand what has been explained about how it does it. I don't except that just because there are multiple ways to interpret a request, a feature shouldn't be implemented.  This is a knock on the protocol.

 

If there is more than one way to interpret a feature, and for dimming a scene there is, then which one should be implemented? My limited experience with creating a programming language/protocol, is that there should must be no ambiguity. If there is, then that's called a bug.

[toddhutch]

@stusviews

 

I think there is a misunderstanding, specifically and not theoretically, Insteon doesn't do something I wish it would, which I have clearly defined above. How this would be implemented in the Insteon protocol is immaterial, since it has been explained that they made a choice that precludes supporting what I want. I have been educated by the responses, and it has given me a deeper understanding of the possibilities and the limitations of the protocol.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say when you said you have no problems and that you are happy with the results when you adjust your scenes. How are you adjusting the scene using the Alexa app? Do you only use it on your computer, and how does it dim or brighten a scene with multiple devices and what do you do with the Alexa app to accomplish that? When you dim a scene with multiple devices what is the result, is it a one by one dimming or the whole scene at once or some thing else?

 

My main question was if the other protocols out there support dimming scenes? I should not assume that this could be implemented with A ISY994, and ask the question if there are other protocol, would that concept and protocol be supported by an ISY994?

 

I will experiment with your suggestion Scott, and see if the desired effect can be implemented. I think it will require adding some programs and commands to Alexa, which the amount of commands is getting a bit overwhelming with all the names already in there.

 

Best regards,

 

Todd

[stusviews]

@stusviews

 

I think there is a misunderstanding, specifically and not theoretically, Insteon doesn't do something I wish it would, which I have clearly defined above. How this would be implemented in the Insteon protocol is immaterial, since it has been explained that they made a choice that precludes supporting what I want. I have been educated by the responses, and it has given me a deeper understanding of the possibilities and the limitations of the protocol.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say when you said you have no problems and that you are happy with the results when you adjust your scenes. How are you adjusting the scene using the Alexa app? Do you only use it on your computer, and how does it dim or brighten a scene with multiple devices and what do you do with the Alexa app to accomplish that? When you dim a scene with multiple devices what is the result, is it a one by one dimming or the whole scene at once or some thing else?

 

My main question was if the other protocols out there support dimming scenes? I should not assume that this could be implemented with A ISY994, and ask the question if there are other protocol, would that concept and protocol be supported by an ISY994?

 

I will experiment with your suggestion Scott, and see if the desired effect can be implemented. I think it will require adding some programs and commands to Alexa, which the amount of commands is getting a bit overwhelming with all the names already in there.

 

Best regards,

 

Todd

 

I did not say that I have no problems. I did indicate that I'm happy with the results. That doesn't imply that the procedure to get those results is ideal. My concern is the definition of dimming a scene, that is, what should occur when the scene is dimmed.

 

I'm not siding with either interpretation, as they're both valid. And, I have no presumption that one interpretation is better than the other. It's just that they are different. My bottom line is, if I can accomplish the desired result relatively easily, then I'm happy. I would also have been happy if either one of the constructs was included in the original protocol as long as I can easily create the other.

 

To answer you other concern about dimming, it depends on what you want to occur. When I say, "Alexa, set the light to 50%, I expect each responders On-Level to change to a value of 50%, not 50% of what it was. (Therein are the two interpretations.)

 

I accomplish what I want to happen by using a computer group (which is somewhat different than a smartphone app group and much different than an Insteon group, adding to the confusion). Each light is given a name, such ad KT ceil, KT cab, etc, as is the scene (KT sch). Each device is added to the group. The group is given given a name the will be the spoken.

 

When I say, "Alexa turn the spoken on, the respondesr turn on at their respective pre-set On-Levels. But, when I ask Alexa to set the spoken to 50%, then each device's On-Level with be 50%, not 50% of what it was.

 

I found an inconsistency when the group is activated for the first few times and there is more than one responder. In particular, not every device responds. The devices that do respond vary with each subsequent voice command, but after that all the devices respond as expected. I have no idea why that happens.

 

If I want to set each device in the scene to a %age of what it was, rather than all to the same specified On-Level, then I use a scene.

[ScottAvery]

I did not say that I have no problems. I did indicate that I'm happy with the results. That doesn't imply that the procedure to get those results is ideal. My concern is the definition of dimming a scene, that is, what should occur when the scene is dimmed.

 

I'm not siding with either interpretation, as they're both valid. And, I have no presumption that one interpretation is better than the other. It's just that they are different. My bottom line is, if I can accomplish the desired result relatively easily, then I'm happy. I would also have been happy if either one of the constructs was included in the original protocol as long as I can easily create the other.

 

To answer you other concern about dimming, it depends on what you want to occur. When I say, "Alexa, set the light to 50%, I expect each responders On-Level to change to a value of 50%, not 50% of what it was. (Therein are the two interpretations.)

 

I accomplish what I want to happen by using a computer group (which is somewhat different than a smartphone app group and much different than an Insteon group, adding to the confusion). Each light is given a name, such ad KT ceil, KT cab, etc, as is the scene (KT sch). Each device is added to the group. The group is given given a name the will be the spoken.

 

When I say, "Alexa turn the spoken on, the respondesr turn on at their respective pre-set On-Levels. But, when I ask Alexa to set the spoken to 50%, then each device's On-Level with be 50%, not 50% of what it was.

 

I found an inconsistency when the group is activated for the first few times and there is more than one responder. In particular, not every device responds. The devices that do respond vary with each subsequent voice command, but after that all the devices respond as expected. I have no idea why that happens.

 

If I want to set each device in the scene to a %age of what it was, rather than all to the same specified On-Level, then I use a scene.

 

Stu, could you please make a separate post to explain what you have figured out for the odd behaviopr of the computer Alexa groups vs App Alexa groups?  I noticed a change I had made on one did not appear on the other, so you are definitely on to something, and I think we could all benefit from it as yet another workaround.

[ScottAvery]

 

My main question was if the other protocols out there support dimming scenes? I should not assume that this could be implemented with A ISY994, and ask the question if there are other protocol, would that concept and protocol be supported by an ISY994?

 

I will experiment with your suggestion Scott, and see if the desired effect can be implemented. I think it will require adding some programs and commands to Alexa, which the amount of commands is getting a bit overwhelming with all the names already in there.

 

I don't know how any of the other protocols work, but it is a fair question.

 

If you really want to force Alexa to set scenes to a level, I recommend you use a state variable that you can have Alexa set to 0-100 range, then monitor the variable with programs that set some preset levels in additional scenes.  You can make it as granular as you like, 5%, 10%, or 20% ranges.  Just have the program select the closest one.  You could make it fancy by tracking which direction the variable is going (with a second variable) so you don't round in the wrong direction.

 

I think Stu's work around of scene and devices in the Alexa group is probably less hassle, but I don't yet know how it works.

[larryllix]

I don't know how any of the other protocols work, but it is a fair question.

 

If you really want to force Alexa to set scenes to a level, I recommend you use a state variable that you can have Alexa set to 0-100 range, then monitor the variable with programs that set some preset levels in additional scenes.  You can make it as granular as you like, 5%, 10%, or 20% ranges.  Just have the program select the closest one.  You could make it fancy by tracking which direction the variable is going (with a second variable) so you don't round in the wrong direction.

 

I think Stu's work around of scene and devices in the Alexa group is probably less hassle, but I don't yet know how it works.

I find that much granularity is useless even.

100%, 40%, 20% and 12% or whatever the lowest the bulbs go are about all that is needed.

 

80% could be added to avoid overheating LED bulbs that are mounted upside down. Yes! they will burn your hands when you unscrew them from a ceiling pot light (US = tophat  = can light)