2441ZTH as Inexpensive Temperature Sensor with Notifications

[bgav]

After coming home from being away to a 42F degree house due to an empty oil tank (automatic delivery FAIL), I was looking for a quick and inexpensive way to add a temperature sensor to my ISY/Insteon HA system. I currently do not have any Smarthome Thermostats controlling my heating system. I do have Smarthome leak sensors and have used resources on here as a guide to set up alerts (email/text/Pushover on iOS) as well as monitor health via a heartbeat variable. I did a search of the forums to see if someone had already posted a how-to guide to set this up but didn't find anything specific. If someone has already or this has been discussed already and this is duplicating prior efforts, I apologize in advance.

 

I picked up a 2441ZTH without the DC power adapter, powered it up with AA batteries and added it to my ISY which identified it correctly (ISY v4.6.2, 2441ZTW firmware v0.E).

 

So far tested and working fine. Any questions, critiques, or a better way of doing it let me know.

 

Variable (State):  Thermostat.Heartbeat: Init 2 

 

Program: Trouble.Variable

 

Even on battery power only, the 2441ZTH will report any change in temperature of .5 or more. I'll use this as a heartbeat and if a temperature change hasn't been reported within 12 hours a trouble condition will be set (Thermostat.Heartbeat = 0). Each change in temperature resets the 12hrs wait thereby keeping the Thermostat.Heartbeat variable at 1 unless the unit malfunctions or loses power, or by some weird atmospheric condition the temperature inside at the thermostat does not vary by +/- .5 degrees. Hopefully over time this will not result in any false positives.

 

For those wondering, I tried using If Thermostat Main is not Responding but it didn't work in my testing.

 

Trouble.Variable - [iD 006C][Parent 0069]

 

If

        Status  'Thermostat - Main' >= 1° (Temperature)

 

Then

        $Thermostat.Heartbeat  = 1

        Wait  12 hours 

        $Thermostat.Heartbeat  = 0

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

Program: Thermostat.Trouble

 

Send notification if no temp change has been reported within 12 hrs. 

 

 

Thermostat.Trouble - [iD 006A][Parent 0069]

 

If

        $Thermostat.Heartbeat is 0

 

Then

        Send Notification to 'Brian' content 'Thermostat.Trouble'

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

 

Program: LowTemp.Alarm

 

2441ZTH mode set to Heat and Heat setpoint set to 50F on unit. If temperature drops to 50F and a heat demand request is sent, trigger notification.

 

LowTemp.Alarm - [iD 006B][Parent 0069]

 

If

        Status  'Thermostat - Heat Ctl' is On

 

Then

        Resource 'Pushover.Low.Temp.Alarm'

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by bgav

[larryllix]

I would be worried that the detection of temperature chnage for a heartbeat, would fail occasionally.

You could OR in a humidity change detection as well, Humidity seems to be reported on a timed constant basis on my units.

 

 

I cut the plug off a 5v adapter and wired it. The batteries are left in as a backup and you should be able to get 5 years out of a set of batteries then. Humidity reports about every 60 seconds on AC but only every 5 minutes on batteries. A simple USB PSU would work for that and commonly available.

 

The 0.5F exception reporting would be awesome. Most report about 1.5F change to report. Have you actually seen this in ISY?  The 2441ZTH screen changes do not coincide what the stat reports to ISY , on my older units. This could affect your heartbeat technique.

Edited January 13, 2018 by larryllix

[Teken]

This may be firmware specific but I recall if the TSTAT was on batteries the temp had to change 3 degrees, no?!?

 

 

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[bgav]

This may be firmware specific but I recall if the TSTAT was on batteries the temp had to change 3 degrees, no?!?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thanks, I'll check the event viewer and my logs and if it's a problem on battery power I already had a DC adapter on the way  .

[larryllix]

This may be firmware specific but I recall if the TSTAT was on batteries the temp had to change 3 degrees, no?!?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hmmmm...I didn't know bateries affected the reporting of temperate. Good point.

 

I am probably talking 1.5 degrees C too and that is pretty coarse.

[bgav]

I would be worried that the detection of temperature chnage for a heartbeat, would fail occasionally.

You could OR in a humidity change detection as well, Humidity seems to be reported on a timed constant basis on my units.

 

 

I cut the plug off a 5v adapter and wired it. The batteries are left in as a backup and you should be able to get 5 years out of a set of batteries then. Humidity reports about every 60 seconds on AC but only every 5 minutes on batteries. A simple USB PSU would work for that and commonly available.

 

The 0.5F exception reporting would be awesome. Most report about 1.5F change to report. Have you actually seen this in ISY?  The 2441ZTH screen changes do not coincide what the stat reports to ISY , on my older units. This could affect your heartbeat technique.

 

Thanks good suggestions I added humidity to the heartbeat as well.

 

 

 

Trouble.Variable - [iD 006C][Parent 0069]

 

If

        Status  'Thermostat - Main' >= 1° (Temperature)

     Or Status  'Thermostat - Main' >= 0% (Humidity)

 

Then

        $Thermostat.Heartbeat  = 1

        Wait  12 hours 

        $Thermostat.Heartbeat  = 0

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by bgav

[Teken]

Thanks, I'll check the event viewer and my logs and if it's a problem on battery power I already had a DC adapter on the way .

Time permitting if it does or doesn't work please do list up the hardware production date and firmware indicates by the ISY Series Controller.

 

Also keep in mind a solid Insteon RF mesh must be present at all times. I would encourage you to have a fail over method to determine the environmentals in and around the home which does not rely on the Insteon protocol.

 

There are many other solutions like 1-Wire, 3rd party RF CAO tags, Z-Wave, etc which many use to integrate with the controller.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bgav]

So far I'm seeing +/- 3F Temp and +/1 Humidity in my logs.

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by bgav

[bgav]

Time permitting if it does or doesn't work please do list up the hardware production date and firmware indicates by the ISY Series Controller.

 

Also keep in mind a solid Insteon RF mesh must be present at all times. I would encourage you to have a fail over method to determine the environmentals in and around the home which does not rely on the Insteon protocol.

 

There are many other solutions like 1-Wire, 3rd party RF CAO tags, Z-Wave, etc which many use to integrate with the controller.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thanks for the input. I looked at this prior to going with the 2441ZTH as a quick and dirty, albeit flawed and not foolproof solution. I may end up adding it for redundancy/backup. I do not have the Z-Wave module in my ISY.

 

According to the sticker inside its Revision 1.6 4816 and ISY reports firmware v0.E.

Edited January 13, 2018 by bgav

[Teken]

So far I'm seeing +/- 3F Temp and +/1 Humidity in my logs.

Thanks for confirming it's still 3 degrees while on battery. It's been a while since this topic came up so wanted the correct information for others to have if they decide to follow suite.

 

NOTE: Please ensure you understand the operating temperature of the TSTAT. Even the label should be taken with a grain of salt as I have seen others operating in the written spec of (cold) temperatures and the unit didn't operate as expected.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bgav]

Thanks for confirming it's still 3 degrees while on battery. It's been a while since this topic came up so wanted the correct information for others to have if they decide to follow suite.

 

NOTE: Please ensure you understand the operating temperature of the TSTAT. Even the label should be taken with a grain of salt as I have seen others operating in the written spec of (cold) temperatures and the unit didn't operate as expected.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

No problem. Operating temp should be fine for my purposes, it's for inside use and if it drops below 50F again there's a problem!

Edited January 13, 2018 by bgav

[Teken]

No problem. Operating temp should be fine for my purposes, it's for inside use and if it drops below 50F again there's a problem!

So what's the back story about the fuel oil not being delivered?!? Is that like what I read on the internet of some old lady who had similar services but the vendor simply didn't come out due to two broken down vehicles??

[larryllix]

So what's the back story about the fuel oil not being delivered?!? Is that like what I read on the internet of some old lady who had similar services but the vendor simply didn't come out due to two broken down vehicles??

 

I'll tell you right now if my NG supply was interrupted for more than 24 hours while the outside temp was -35'C. My home would be in a serious critical situation!!

 

 

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Several times I have been away with my tenps set down to 10C and it takes about two weeks to achieve that low temperature in the house, with our typical -10 to -20C outside temperatures. OTOH: I have slab heating in the basement and it leaks somewhat into the ground taking several days to come up to temp for normal heating, so the cool down will be longer also. (large thermal mass)

 

When I was building, I spent a winter with no ceiling drywall, no vapour barrier and no  insulation, but only 2" of styrofoam on the outside walls.  No hydro or NG yet, and no heating attempted either. My future sump pit (no concrete on the basement floor) froze for one day and then thawed the next day, by itself.  Now that is in the ground also.We don't get the sun like you do out west of here so not as much radiant solar.

[bgav]

So what's the back story about the fuel oil not being delivered?!? Is that like what I read on the internet of some old lady who had similar services but the vendor simply didn't come out due to two broken down vehicles??

 

I'll tell you right now if my NG supply was interrupted for more than 24 hours while the outside temp was -35'C. My home would be in a serious critical situation!!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Brutal cold snap across Northeast, Midwest, and even down South in US from late Dec to early Jan saw temps below 15F on average and some days around 5F for a high combined with the "bomb cyclone" caused supply issues with home heating oil and propane, and threw off autodelivery calculations.. I knew in the back of my mind I was due soon so shame on me for not taking a peak at the oil tank gauge. Hasn't ever been an issue before, they usually autodeliver spot on between 1/4 to 1/3 of a tank.

 

I was out of the house overnight for less than 24hrs and it had already dropped to 42F inside with an outside temp around 5-10F. Fortunately when I got home and realized they screwed up and I called 24/7 emergency service, they sent a tech out within 3 hours to put in 10 gallons and prime the burner. Had a full delivery within 10hrs. Luckily I wasn't away longer so no burst pipes, etc. I talked to the tech and he was non-stop with the same calls, I wasn't the only one...

 

House is c1850 and isn't the tightest and most energy efficient...

 

Several times I have been away with my tenps set down to 10C and it takes about two weeks to achieve that low temperature in the house, with our typical -10 to -20C outside temperatures. OTOH: I have slab heating in the basement and it leaks somewhat into the ground taking several days to come up to temp for normal heating, so the cool down will be longer also. (large thermal mass)

 

When I was building, I spent a winter with no ceiling drywall, no vapour barrier and no  insulation, but only 2" of styrofoam on the outside walls.  No hydro or NG yet, and no heating attempted either. My future sump pit (no concrete on the basement floor) froze for one day and then thawed the next day, by itself.  Now that is in the ground also.We don't get the sun like you do out west of here so not as much radiant solar.

Edited January 13, 2018 by bgav

[Teken]

You really lucked out as there were quite a few people in your region that waited more than five days for fuel to be delivered. Its obvious I am spoiled because our NG is in the ground so no worries about running out or delivery fails. Having said this my long term plans have been to incorporate different types of back up heating from electric, wood, pellets, to propane.

 

I'm still very much in the planning stages of what I can depend upon which doesn't have so many dependencies / costs. 

[bgav]

You really lucked out as there were quite a few people in your region that waited more than five days for fuel to be delivered. Its obvious I am spoiled because our NG is in the ground so no worries about running out or delivery fails. Having said this my long term plans have been to incorporate different types of back up heating from electric, wood, pellets, to propane.

 

I'm still very much in the planning stages of what I can depend upon which doesn't have so many dependencies / costs. 

I do have a Jotul propane stove in the kitchen so I fired that up right away. When I ran out I started Googling and found a NYT article about shortages like you mentioned so I was preparing for the worst and was very relieved when I got the delivery that quickly..

Edited January 13, 2018 by bgav

[smokegrub]

I have used a 2441zth powered with a dongle at a remote location for several years. My personal experience is that it has problems and requires occasional rebooting and resetting of heat/cool parameters. I have accomplished this remotely using an Insteon device to provide power to the stat and a program executed by the ISY. I have also found the 3 degree change needed for the stat to report a temperature change problematic. I still use that stat and programs to alert me of a system failure, but I have backed that up with a Cao tag and tag manager which, when the tag is properly calibrated, is extremely accurate and is programmed to provide email alerts. I love those tags for monitoring motion and, especially temperature measurement. I use them as backups to my hidden door sensors, replacements for open/close sensors, alerting me to mail deliveries and the like. Finally, I have a thermometer positioned where, if needed, I can remotely reposition an Insteon camera and see the temperature.

[Teken]

I do have a Jotul propane stove in the kitchen so I fired that up right away. When I ran out I started Googling and found a NYT article about shortages like you mentioned so I was preparing for the worst and was very relieved when I got the delivery that quickly..

 

Thanks for the link it was a great read.

 

In my part of the world (Canada) I've never heard of a *Bomb Cyclone* ever being coined?!? We just accept its cold and go along with life given its cold *Winter* for all of us!  

 

This was captured by my guardian security alarm system a few weeks back.

 

 

This was the wind chill at the time which remained for more than seven days. Many people can't relate or appreciate what -40 ~ -50'C northern wind chill will do to a human body. 

 

 

While I was on site working on a communication tower my *Follow Me* system tracked the local weather as being this: That's -35'C before the wind and with the wind chill its -47'C.

 

 

Here is one of my systems which tracks all of the homes environmental's from energy, water, gas, weather, etc.

 

 

 

It was so cold one day the one application which tracks my location stopped at -29'C. I'm located in that red circle which if you look at the legend is the coldest part of the region.

 

 

As noted early on I was outside for more than 12 hours working on a communications tower while it was -35'C before the wind chill of -50'C. I had to remove some fasteners with a standard claw hammer and the two claws snapped clean off in the cold. This image is of the dead blow hammer I had on hand which after 12 hours in the cold exploded and all I had left was the handle.

 

I was really lucky my safety glasses were on because several pieces grazed my left eyebrow.   

 

[bgav]

@Teken,

I know everything is relative and I'm becoming less tolerant of the cold and winter in general but that is COLD!!! I can't imagine working for extended periods of time outside at those temps...

Here's a GEOS-16 loops of the "bomb cyclone", it's pretty self explanatory.  Working on (climbing??) a communications tower no less with no or very little margin for screw-ups.

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by bgav

[larryllix]

Somewhere in the archives of this forum I reported the reading from my 2441ZTH stat below the freezing point.

IIRC the temperature reported down to about -3C (26F) but since the binary values are only for positive interpretation the figures became 250 counts and appeared as +125.0C

 

 

 For you binary mathematicians this is easy for one byte aritmetic

• (250 - 2⁸ )  /  2   =   - 2.5 degrees C.

At about -3.0 C the electronics crapped out and just stopped sending Insteon. (It couldn't even cry for help but I may have heard faint whimpers   )

 

Hopefully you will know before that ever happens.

 

You need some better house insulation if you get those gore -b Al ly warmed temperatures  He doesn't live in Canada, so it's not a problem here.

[Teken]

@Teken,

 

I know everything is relative and I'm becoming less tolerant of the cold and winter in general but that is COLD!!! I can't imagine working for extended periods of time outside at those temps...

Here's a GEOS-16 loops of the "bomb cyclone", it's pretty self explanatory.  Working on (climbing??) a communications tower no less with no or very little margin for screw-ups.

 

 

Yeah at 1287 feet in the air there's a few things you better get right from the onset. Make sure you took a pee and number 2, eat something hardy, ensure your tool audit is on spec and everything is on hand for parts, radio and cell is fully charged and working, pace yourself going up, never look at passing clouds, clip & go every rung, take a break when ever you need to, stay focused on the decent.

[Lloyd in San Jose]

I am new to this forum so there may be some answers out there already, although I didn't find them with a search.  I have been playing with the ISY, ELK, and Insteon products for a couple of years.  What I want to do is bring my pool and hot tub controls into the system and looking for the best solution.  I have separate pool and hot tub systems along with solar for both.  I am currently using an old Intellitouch system which was good 15 years ago, but not so useful today.  It has lots of problems with its design which I wont go into. I know I can control valves using the Intermatic PE24 and pumps with Insteon high current 240V switches which have worked well for me so far.  The real problem I am facing is being able to measure temperature accurately and quickly and feed it into ISY to make decisions to turn on gas heater, or open solar valves, etc.  I'd like to connect 6 or so thermometers or thermostats in various places and use them to make decisions.  If the Insteon thermostat could be set to say 105F I could simply drop it in and use it like I would my home thermostat to control hot tub, only it is limited on the high end to 90 something.  It will read higher, but I can't use it to set the temp and and feedback directly to hot tub heater.  Currently I am using it to read the temperature and the feed the data back to ISY to make the decision to turn the heater on or off.  There are a couple of problems with this.  First it is not as nice to set the temp, but second and most importantly the feedback loop is slow.  For example if I want the heater to be set to 103, and say turn it off at 103, it tends to overshoot to 104 or 105 and then not turn back on until 100 or 101, causing a 3 to 5 degrees of variation.  The problem is it takes too long to get the signal to ISY that the temperature has changed.  Is there anyway to get it to send temp to ISY more quickly?  I am not sure what the cycle time is, but would expect it to happen if the temp changed by a small amount.  

 

What are your suggestions?  I am ok with starting over with something totally different if needed.  What i want to be able to do is read back temp every 10 or 15 seconds whenever the hot tub pump is running and is close to set temp and use ISY to make decisions about when to start the heater or turn it off.  

[larryllix]

Welcome to the UDI forums!!!

 

I would get a proper direct wired thermostat system for this application. The difference between 102F and 105F is from luke-warm to scalding feeling, where you will not be able to get in the tub. The Insteon stat will never handle this accurately enough.

 

If you want to monitor and use ISY based setbacks etc.. I would recommend using a CAO Wireless Tag that comes with the remote probe. There is currently another thread regarding this matter  in the forum.

 

Once you purchase a Tag manager, other Tags can be added for so many applications with ISY. The kumoapp code for this is posted in another thread on the forums.