Troubleshooting my ISY Issues

[GDavis01]

Recently, I have been encountering some issues with my ISY (all Insteon devices running on v.5.0.10) and so I started looking for  cause(s)...

 

One of the steps I took was to look at the Link Tables... I found numerous errors on devices when I did "Show Device Links Table and the Compare"! In each case, I did a "Restore Device" which seemed to work since the 'Compare' then showed that everything in Device Links Table was identical to the ISY Links Table. This exercise raises a few questions:

 

1 - What causes these tables to be wrong?

 

2 - Is there an easier way than going through the process one device at a time?

 

3 - Am I correct that when I find errors like this that I should be doing a "Restore Device"?

 

4 -  I ready the Wiki on the description of the fields but I am still confused by what I'm seeing... 

 

•    the Wiki has this

          Next pair:

          E2 = controller
          A2 = responder
          22 = deleted
          02 = deleted
          00 = EOF (End Of File)

   

    However, I am also seeing AA's! Is this related to the v.5 series and the Wiki is not updated? What does this pair mean?

 

• The PLM's address represents the great majority of the linked addresses shown ... the exceptions I see are when I have a 3-way switch setup I see the address of the other switch as well as many of the PLM. Is this normal for an Insteon network?

• In those instances where I see the AA pair it is either associated with the address of the PLM or another address that I cannot find on my system! (note that both the Device Links Table and the ISY Links Table show the AA with that mysterious address!)

5 - Why is it that some devices show 4 lines in the Links Table whereas others show 8 or even more?

 

I would appreciate some help in understanding this ...

[oberkc]

1.  Links from manual process?  Residual links from prior system?  Failing PLM or comm problems?

 

2.  Not that I can think.

 

3.  Yes.

 

4.  

 

5.  Some devices are part of more scenes than others?

[GDavis01]

Thanks for the reply... 

 

1 - I am guessing that perhaps my PLM (v2.1) is starting to fail... it passed the 2 year mark in May of 2017. So I bought a new PLM and followed the correct procedure to install it.

 

2 - I'm surprised that there isn't a way to check the overall system with one command! I have about 40 devices and each one takes about a minute to right-click Diagnotics--> Show Device Links Table --> Compare, then if there is an error Restore Device, then to confirm Diagnotics--> Show Device Links Table --> Compare again! I had one device that required being Restored twice! That's a long time to 

 

4 - No one has commented on the AA category! I'm still curious as to what this means. Interestingly, almost all of the errors, after installing the new PLM, were on the devices that had the AA pair. I believe, because I didn't notice this at first, that any device that had two links with the AA pairs would yield an error on one of those links. In each case, after a restore, one of the AA links was deleted!!

 

 

After changing the PLM, I ran the Diagnostic - PLM Links Table and the count was 159. Then I tried the ISY PLM Link Calculator and the number came to 311!! Should I be worried? If so, how do I go about troubleshooting this?

[Techman]

Take a look at the attached Insteon White Paper, it has a detailed explanation of the link tables.

AA appears to be used for RF packets (see page 31 of the white paper)

 

If all you devices are working correctly after you installed the new modem then you can probably ignore the "approximate" link count from the calculator.

Insteon white paper.pdf

[GDavis01]

Thanks for the link... Although the document is somewhat above my level of comprehension, the part you are referring me to talks about RF messaging whereas the AA I am looking at is a link table parameter! On page 41 there is "RF messages begin with two sync bytes consisting of AAAA in hexadecimal, followed by a start code byte of C3 in hexadecimal"... I'm wondering if this AA sequence in quite different than the one I am asking about...

 

It seems to me that the pair in the table should be defining the nature of the linked device - e.g. controller or responder...

 

By the way, I also couldn't find in the white paper any reference to the other pairs in the wiki.

 

          E2 = controller

          A2 = responder
          22 = deleted
          02 = deleted
          00 = EOF (End Of File)

 

Interestingly, my cottage ISY has also been giving me problems and I am up at the cottage this weekend to try to figure things out. I finally switched over to a new PLM today, because I was continue to have issues. After doing so, I found a lot of devices with an AA pair in the link tables but in each case the restore device removed the line. in the end, on this ISY, I have no devices with an AA reference in the tables, whereas on my home ISY I still have numerous AA lines in the tables!

[Techman]

Thanks for the link... Although the document is somewhat above my level of comprehension, the part you are referring me to talks about RF messaging whereas the AA I am looking at is a link table parameter! On page 41 there is "RF messages begin with two sync bytes consisting of AAAA in hexadecimal, followed by a start code byte of C3 in hexadecimal"... I'm wondering if this AA sequence in quite different than the one I am asking about...

 

It seems to me that the pair in the table should be defining the nature of the linked device - e.g. controller or responder...

 

By the way, I also couldn't find in the white paper any reference to the other pairs in the wiki.

 

          E2 = controller

          A2 = responder

          22 = deleted

          02 = deleted

          00 = EOF (End Of File)

 

Interestingly, my cottage ISY has also been giving me problems and I am up at the cottage this weekend to try to figure things out. I finally switched over to a new PLM today, because I was continue to have issues. After doing so, I found a lot of devices with an AA pair in the link tables but in each case the restore device removed the line. in the end, on this ISY, I have no devices with an AA reference in the tables, whereas on my home ISY I still have numerous AA lines in the tables!

 

Can you take a screen shot of the link with AA in it and post it on the forum

[GDavis01]

 

Here is a screenshot I took earlier today of one instance where the AA showed up as a record mismatch when I did the compare.

 

Note that after the Device Restore this line disappeared. My home ISY still has some AA's showing even after the compare and Device Restore because they exist in both the device and ISY tables.

 

Edit:

 

I should also add that the address, in the attachment, associated with that AA (as well as the first and fourth items with the A2 pair) line is not one that I recognize! I have no devices with the 48.EA.C6 address!

[Techman]

Screen Shot 2018-01-20 at 12.18.50 PM.png

 

Here is a screenshot I took earlier today of one instance where the AA showed up as a record mismatch when I did the compare.

 

Note that after the Device Restore this line disappeared. My home ISY still has some AA's showing even after the compare and Device Restore because they exist in both the device and ISY tables.

 

Edit:

 

I should also add that the address, in the attachment, associated with that AA (as well as the first and fourth items with the A2 pair) line is not one that I recognize! I have no devices with the 48.EA.C6 address!

 

Try doing a factory reset then restore device on a device with an AA link table. Let me know if that clears up the mismatch.

What type of device is it. What's the 4 digit date code on the device?

[GDavis01]

Ok I just realized that what I said was wrong!! The address 48.EA.C6 is actually the address of my new PLM!!

 

As I tried to explain, I no longer have the mismatch. After the restore device the mismatch disappeared. And the AA line is now gone.

My  home ISY, when I did the device restore would have one instance of the AA disappear but the other one remained in both tables, therefore no mismatch either.

 

The address of the device is 1D.AD.A6 and the device is a 2477D Dual Band Switchlink Dimmer v41.

[Techman]

Ok I just realized that what I said was wrong!! The address 48.EA.C6 is actually the address of my new PLM!!

 

As I tried to explain, I no longer have the mismatch. After the restore device the mismatch disappeared. And the AA line is now gone.

My  home ISY, when I did the device restore would have one instance of the AA disappear but the other one remained in both tables, therefore no mismatch either.

 

The address of the device is 1D.AD.A6 and the device is a 2477D Dual Band Switchlink Dimmer v41.

 

I've never come across a device with an AA link. It's possible the link was left over from a previous use or a factory test.  You could always try a factory reset / restore device to see if that eliminates it. Not sure why it would show up on the ISY link table.

 

Did you buy the device new from Smarthome or from a 3rd party?

[GDavis01]

I am back home now and below is a screenshot of one device on that ISY. As you can see, the AA link is in both tables!

Out of my 40 or so devices, there are 7 with an AA link.

 

I'm in Canada and I get my insteon devices from Aartech who, I believe, are official distributors...

 

6 of the 7 devices are 2477D's and one is a 2477S.

 

 

 

[kclenden]

LeeG has addressed this particular issue multiple times over the last couple years.  Here's a link to one such time https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/18122-links-table-record-mismatches-keep-reappearing/?hl=record#entry166265 Search for "Link Table" with LeeG as the author if you want to see others.

 

To summarize, the E2, A2, and AA that you see in the Link Table are part of the Record Control Info.  The Record Control Info is one byte that breaks out as:

Bit 7: Active

Bit 6: Controls Me

Bit 5: 1

Bit 4: Smarthop

Bit 3: Smarthop

Bit 2: 0

Bit 1: High Water

Bit 0: 0

 

The two Smarthop bits are manipulated by the device as it learns about how well messages travel over your Insteon network.  They start at 00 and ratchet up to 11.  So an A2 record has the two Smarthop bits set at 00, while an AA record has them set at 01.  Likewise an E2 record could become an EA record if the Smarthop bits change from 00 to 01.  The key here is that if the device changes the Smarthops value, it doesn't tell the ISY.

 

So when looking at the link table, an A2, AA, B2, and BA all mean essentially the same thing except that the Smarthops go from 00 to 01 to 10 to 11.  Same for an E2, EA, F2 and FA record.

[Techman]

That seems to make sense for the AA link to appear in the device link table but why would the AA show up in the ISY link table?

[kclenden]

That seems to make sense for the AA link to appear in the device link table but why would the AA show up in the ISY link table?

I don't know.  Perhaps in V5, ISY has implemented new code that captures the Smarthops bit when doing a restore so that the device doesn't have to recalculate them.  Perhaps the OP can shed some light on this by telling us whether AA appears in any ISY link tables that haven't been involved in a restore operation.

[GDavis01]

I don't know.  Perhaps in V5, ISY has implemented new code that captures the Smarthops bit when doing a restore so that the device doesn't have to recalculate them.  Perhaps the OP can shed some light on this by telling us whether AA appears in any ISY link tables that haven't been involved in a restore operation.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot confirm this! Every instance of the AA is within the tables of devices that I did a Device Restore on... However, from memory, before doing the device restore, when I did the Diagnotics--> Show Device Links Table --> Compare there were two instances of the AA with one of the two showing as a mismatch, which would suggest that the one that didn't show the mismatch was already in the ISY link tables, before the restore.

[Techman]

Unfortunately, I cannot confirm this! Every instance of the AA is within the tables of devices that I did a Device Restore on... However, from memory, before doing the device restore, when I did the Diagnotics--> Show Device Links Table --> Compare there were two instances of the AA with one of the two showing as a mismatch, which would suggest that the one that didn't show the mismatch was already in the ISY link tables, before the restore.

 

The mismatched link usually shows up in the device link table not the ISY link table. Doing a restore device rewrites the link table stored in the ISY to the device.

The ISY link tables shouldn't change unless you reprogramed a device from within the ISY.

 

What version of the ISY firmware and UI are you running?

[GDavis01]

Both the firmware and the UI are running v5.0.10

[Techman]

Both the firmware and the UI are running v5.0.10

 

I'm not sure if 5.0.10 treats the ISY link tables differently or if it's a bug in  5.0.10

 

I'm running 4.6.2 and the only mismatch I've come across is EA, which shows up on the device link table and can be ignored..

[kclenden]

I'm running 4.3.26 and have seen AA mismatches (where they appear in the device table but not the ISY table).  I just tried restoring one of those, not because I'm experiencing any problems, but to see if it would result in an AA record in the ISY table, but it did not.

 

Before:

 

After:

 

If I understand linking correctly, when you look at the Before links, the first link (A2 00) says that the device, in this case a switchlinc, is a responder to the PLM.  This allows the ISY to query the status of the device, via the PLM, at any time.  The second link (E2 01) says the device is a controller for the PLM.  This means whenever the device is used it will send its status to the PLM which allows the ISY to always know the status of the device.  When you add a device to your ISY, it will always create those two links.  The third link (A2 11) in my Before, says that the device is a responder in my "ALL Off" scene.  The fourth link (AA 00) shows up as a mismatch between the device table and the ISY table.  It would appear to indicate that the device is a responder to the PLM with smarthops set to 1.  It seems to duplicate the purpose of the first link (A2 00) but with "broadcast for cleanup" activated.  I guess it gets created whenever the device is activated and encounters transmission errors while communicating with the PLM.  If it does duplicate the purpose of the (A2 00) link, I don't know why the device didn't just update the (A2 00) link instead of creating a new one.  Of course none of this explains why the AA record sometimes appears in the ISY link table.

 

Edited: to add my linking understanding, or lack there of.