Which wireless system for M1?

[mikek]

I'll be installing an ELK M1 and need some wireless sensor capability. It looks like there are two options, either the M1XRFTWM transceiver (for ELK's line of "two way" wireless sensors), or the M1XRF2H (for the Honeywell 5800 series transmitters). The Honeywell route, it seems, provides more transmitter options at lower prices, but I'm wondering if there are any advantages to the ELK system. Do their own sensors perform any better than Honeywell's? Is the "two way" wireless really more reliable? Anyone have experience with either of these systems? Any recommendations? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

 

 

[shannong]

I own both. Overall, my preference is the Honeywell because of wide variety of options available and price. I created about 20 leak sensors using the inexpensive Honeywell wireless contact sensors for less than $20 a piece. Wouldn't have been cost feasible with Elk or Insteon.

 

When I first started I had only the Elk transceiver and they didn't even have a CO sensor or glass breakage option back then. Now, that's less of an issue.

 

Conceptually, I really like the two-way protocol. However, I have had zero issues with my Honeywell sensors reliably transmitting.

 

The only caveat I can share is that I have had a few false positives with my Honeywell sensors, but I can say what the issue is. Once every 6 - 9 months a sensor will be triggered creating an event and has happened with all different kinds of Honeywell sensors I own. (contacts, glass breakage, smokes, etc) I can't say if it's actually an RF event, Elk software bug, bus protocol error, etc. It's been nearly impossible to troubleshoot since the Elk lacks real logging/debug capabilities and of course the event is unpredictable.

 

 

[mikek]

I own both. Overall, my preference is the Honeywell because of wide variety of options available and price. I created about 20 leak sensors using the inexpensive Honeywell wireless contact sensors for less than $20 a piece. Wouldn't have been cost feasible with Elk or Insteon.

 

When I first started I had only the Elk transceiver and they didn't even have a CO sensor or glass breakage option back then. Now, that's less of an issue.

 

Conceptually, I really like the two-way protocol. However, I have had zero issues with my Honeywell sensors reliably transmitting.

 

The only caveat I can share is that I have had a few false positives with my Honeywell sensors, but I can say what the issue is. Once every 6 - 9 months a sensor will be triggered creating an event and has happened with all different kinds of Honeywell sensors I own. (contacts, glass breakage, smokes, etc) I can't say if it's actually an RF event, Elk software bug, bus protocol error, etc. It's been nearly impossible to troubleshoot since the Elk lacks real logging/debug capabilities and of course the event is unpredictable.

 

Thanks much. Good info.

[Scottmichaelj]

Thanks much. Good info.

What he said. Elks two way is great and your get supervised reporting if one fails to check in or needs a battery.

 

Honeywell is nice for a Heat Detector or weather proof open/close sensors on gates.

 

I run both with nothing negative to say about either.

[shannong]

What he said. Elks two way is great and your get supervised reporting if one fails to check in or needs a battery.

 

 

 

You get supervision with Honeywell, as well.

[Scottmichaelj]

You get supervision with Honeywell, as well.

Sorry your right, I should have mentioned it.

[MWareman]

I also run both systems. I choose Elk 2-way if possible - and fall back for variety.. No ill effects.

[TrojanHorse]

Ive been considering using GE in addition to my Elk wireless sensors so I’m interested here too. For those that run both, any considerations when installing the wireless modules (I guess transceiver for Elk and receiver for GE)? Do the units need a minimum physical separation for example?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shannong]

Ive been considering using GE in addition to my Elk wireless sensors so I’m interested here too. For those that run both, any considerations when installing the wireless modules (I guess transceiver for Elk and receiver for GE)? Do the units need a minimum physical separation for example? 

 

 

GE seems like an odd choice to me. But GE operates at 319Mhz and Elk at 900Mhz so there isn't a concern with interference between the two. Thus their location with respect to each other isn't a consideration.

[mikek]

I also run both systems. I choose Elk 2-way if possible - and fall back for variety.. No ill effects.

 

Why do you prefer the ELK 2-way?

[MWareman]

The two way means that the sensor polls the panel to confirm that it’s reachable, and it retires delivery of the alert if necessary. The panel can also poll the sensor - to confirm its there and healthy. This means the panel can properly supervise the sensor.

 

Without two-way, the sensor sends a periodic ping to the panel. If more than a threshold of pings are missed, then the sensor goes into fault. So, while the GE and Honeywell sensors are still technically supervised, it could be some time before the panel realizes there is a fault when a one way sensors battery runs out (as one example).

[shannong]

The two way means that the sensor polls the panel to confirm that it’s reachable, and it retires delivery of the alert if necessary. The panel can also poll the sensor - to confirm its there and healthy. This means the panel can properly supervise the sensor.

 

 

I've not seen any documentation or literature about the panel polling the Elk two-way sensors. The only use of two-way I've seen documented is that all signals sent from the sensor to the panel are acknowledged by the panel back to the sensor and if an acknowledgement is not received by the sensor then it sends again until success. Like with Honeywell, if the panel hasn't heard from the sensor in configured time period then it declares the "transmitter lost". 

 

The panel polling the sensor would definitely be great and may affect my use of Elk vs Honeywell for particular zones/sensors.

 

Have you found any documentation or literature discussing the panel-initiated polling you mention? Links would be great.

[MWareman]

Well - maybe not official - but according to https://www.smarthome.com/elk-products-two-way-wireless-ready-m1-gold-home-monitoring-kit.html

 

"The system is designed to continually check and monitor the status of all sensors through an active two-way auto-sync feature to ensure the devices are functioning properly. In addition to the active two-way auto-sync feature, the wireless transceivers and sensors communicate by sending one signal at a time that will automatically route through different devices until the signal reaches the transceiver and acknowledges the command or alert."

 

Anecdotally, if I pull the battery from a 2-way sensor, and a 1-way sensor - the panel will throw a fault for the wireless sensor *much* sooner than the 1-way sensor.

 

Michael.

[Scottmichaelj]

I can confirm this as well. The transmitters will check themselves aprox every 90mins. I believe if you look in the wireless sensors manual it states it there.

[shannong]

I can confirm this as well. The transmitters will check themselves aprox every 90mins. I believe if you look in the wireless sensors manual it states it there.

 

Right. The transmitters or "sensors" do this.  They check in. All wireless sensors do.  However, that's not the same as the M1 actively polling the sensor.

[Scottmichaelj]

Right. The transmitters or "sensors". Do. They check in. All wireless sensors do. However, that's not the same as the M1 actively polling the sensor.

Look at the transmitter. It’s connected to the data bus of the M1 and it’s the brain that adds this function.

[shannong]

Well - maybe not official - but according to https://www.smarthome.com/elk-products-two-way-wireless-ready-m1-gold-home-monitoring-kit.html

 

"The system is designed to continually check and monitor the status of all sensors through an active two-way auto-sync feature to ensure the devices are functioning properly. In addition to the active two-way auto-sync feature, the wireless transceivers and sensors communicate by sending one signal at a time that will automatically route through different devices until the signal reaches the transceiver and acknowledges the command or alert."

 

Anecdotally, if I pull the battery from a 2-way sensor, and a 1-way sensor - the panel will throw a fault for the wireless sensor *much* sooner than the 1-way sensor.

 

Michael.

 

Smarthome descriptions aren't of any value IMO. Notice it also says that Elk sensor acts as a repeater for all others creating a full mesh wireless network. I've never heard of that either. So Elk wireless works like Zwave? I don't think so. Although, interesting and helpful if true.

[shannong]

Look at the transmitter. It’s connected to the data bus of the M1 and it’s the brain that adds this function.

 

Transmitters don't connect to the data bus. Transmitters are the wireless sensors. Transceivers connect to the data bus.

 

Any documentation to support this idea? I want it to be true. I just don't see anything beyond a vague Smarthome description supporting this notion.

[shannong]

The write-up below about the Elk two-way function is from the what they link to on their own website.

 

Notice they first talk about how having the panel polling the sensors is not a good idea for battery operated sensors. Then they describe how they use acknowledgement instead to provide reliability and save battery. No discussion about the panel polling the sensors. No discussion about sensors repeating for each other. Because again, they would have to always be listening chewing up battery to do that.

 

https://www.cepro.com/article/why_you_want_two_way_technology_in_security_sensors

 

 

..........

 

Ideally you would want the panel to be able to query the sensors to see if they’re online and doing OK, but that means the sensors would have to always be listening, which wastes batteries.

 

 

Benefits of Two-Way

Thanks to new RF technologies and communications schemes, however, new two-way sensors for the home market have been available for the past few years from vendors like ELK Products, makers of the M1 family of security and home automation panels and peripherals. ELK’s two-way capabilities are available on a diverse range of products including motion sensors (PIRs), smoke detectors and keyfobs. The company says the two-way nature of these products can actually save battery life because feedback can be obtained instantly, letting the sensors know the message has been received and that there's no reason to keep pinging the panel.

 

“Conventional wireless transmitters ‘shout’ eight times, hoping to reach the receiver,” says ELK director of sales and marketing Trudy Phillips. “However, ELK transmitters stop transmitting once transmission receipt is confirmed with an acknowledgement to the transmitter. This saves the battery power required for up to seven more transmissions traditionally sent by conventional wireless transmitters.”

 

Also, there is visual verification on the devices themselves in the form of an LED, which indicates a message was received from a tripped sensor. With this feedback, dealers can test each sensor at the device location, rather than having to return to a keypad or app to confirm a successful transmission. 

 

Beyond these "convenience" factors, however, ELK's two-way sensors play an even more important role: enhanced system-wide security.

 

In addition to encrypting the signal transmissions, ELK utilizes frequency-hopping across a broad spectrum in the 900 MHz band. The system automatically scans and hops across 25 frequency channels, making it "virtually impossible" for intruders to lock onto the signal and thereby hack the system. The sensors comply with the UL listing requiring the detection and reporting of outside jamming attempts.

 

The demand for such security features has become more urgent since recent cyber attacks on smart homes.

 

[Scottmichaelj]

Transmitters don't connect to the data bus. Transmitters are the wireless sensors. Transceivers connect to the data bus.

 

Any documentation to support this idea? I want it to be true. I just don't see anything beyond a vague Smarthome description supporting this notion.

 

 

The ELK M1XRFTWM is a M1 Two-Way Wireless Transceiver, it receives and transmits. The M1 does not "POLL" the ELK two way wireless devices, the wireless devices will automatically send a signal aprox every 60 mins to the M1 to check-in. When the M1 does not get the signal thats when the supervisory is triggered (or low battery). I personally called Elk this morning to see if there was anything in writing and Elk support cannot find anything but confirms this. If I get something in writing I will post it here. Feel free to contact ELK support and see if they will help you. Once you confirm what I am saying is true please post back for others.

[shannong]

 

  The M1 does not "POLL" the ELK two way wireless devices, the wireless devices will automatically send a signal aprox every 60 mins to the M1 to check-in.

 

That's what I've been saying all along.

[Scottmichaelj]

That's what I've been saying all along.

I was still on the original topic. My mistake. It appears you were replying to MWaremans response. I will try learn how to follow along. 50 lashes with a wet noodle for me!

 

This might be helpful for comparison of one way wireless sensors vs Elks Two Way. Per the M1XRFTW Elk Installation Manual on page 7 it states:

 

How does the Elk Two-Way technology differ from one-way wireless technology?

Elk's Two-Way technology is superior to traditional one-way wireless products in many ways.

1. Every signal sent by an Elk two-way sensor receives a positive acknowledgment from the transceiver. One-way systems have

the reputation of being "fire and pray".

2. Elk two-way sensors only send one signal at a time. One-way sensors have no choice but to blindly send multiple signals in

hopes that at least one will reach the receiver.

3. Long battery life and energy efficiency are inherent designs of the Elk two-way sensors. Elk two-way sensors self-adjust their RF power, using only the minimum power needed to deliver a clear signal. One-way sensors consume FULL power on each and every transmission.

4. Long range coverage is possible due to the 900 MHz frequency range and automatic frequency hopping design. One-way systems operate at a specific, non-adjustable lower frequency.

5. A two-color LED indicator on the sensor provides operational feedback. A single Green blink means the transmission was sent and positively acknowledged by the transceiver. A Red blink means the sensor was unable to receive an acknowledgment from the M1XRFTW transceiver. One-way sensors provide no indication of signal verification.

6. Installation confidence. All Elk 6000 series sensors artificially limit their RF power to 50% of normal for the first 10 minutes after battery installation. This "stress test" helps to assure that a sensor's mounting location and range is suitable for long term reliability. The principle is that a sensor that is able to reliably communicate using half the normal power will have a high degree of reliability with full 100% power. Other sensor brands do not provide this confidence feature. To take full advantage of this feature we recommended that every sensor be temporarily installed at its intended location and violated (tripped) multiple times while observing the two-color LED indicator. A near instant GREEN blink response from the sensor is Ideal. The sensor will repeatedly attempt to reach the receiver for up to 20 seconds, but any time it takes more than just a few seconds to get through it means that the mounting location is poor. Therefore, we strongly suggest reorienting the sensor to another spot on the mounting surface, or rotating its mounting by 90 degrees whenever it takes more than a few seconds to get a GREEN acknowledge. Excessive range and poor wireless conditions will always result in a delay of the GREEN blink. A Red blink means the sensor was unable to receive an acknowledgment from the M1XRFTW transceiver. NOTE: In extreme situations it may be necessary to relocate the transceiver to closer spot or to add an additional remote transceiver to cover distant sensors.