Programs Not Working But Direct Control Does

[stillen_i30]

Hello,

Moved to a new home about 6 mos ago. Have a much smaller network than in my previous place but it is slowly getting larger once again. I have one panel and both phases are linked with APs in the house.

Everything has worked great until this past week when I noticed random devices that are supposed to be either turned on or off by a program will not work. Random lights are on in the morning (whereas their associated devices may be off) or certain lights (landscape lights for example) are barely ever turning on now in the evening. However, once I use mobilinc or admin console to manually turn them on/off it works. Scene test shows success for all devices in scenes. I have not had any communication issues previously. No new devices lately.

My PLM is virtually new (it was a backup PLM in my previous home but I never had to use it before moving out) and it is the "improved" type that's not "supposed" to burn out

Any ideas on what I should be focusing on for diagnosing the issue?

[stusviews]

Post an errant program (right click on the program name, select, "Copy to ClipBoard."

[stillen_i30]

Sure. This program is simple and has worked fine for several  months before last week

 

All Landscape Lights - [ID 0004][Parent 0003]

If
        From    Sunset  + 15 minutes
        To       1:30:00AM (next day)
 
Then
        Set 'Outside Lights / Front Landscape Lights' On
        Set 'Outside Lights / Back Landscape Lights' On
 
Else
        Set 'Outside Lights / Front Landscape Lights' Off
        Set 'Outside Lights / Back Landscape Lights' Off
 

[stusviews]

What are the loads. incandescent, LED, CFL, transformer, something else? Be specific. Which Insteon controller(s)? Again, be specific. In the interim, change the on and off times by a wide margin, for example by 30 minutes or more. Or even have both On and Off occur during the day when it's convenient to observe the result. Any success?

[stillen_i30]

All bulbs are LED (they were all the same LEDs in my old place...took them out and using them in the new place). Some are plug in modules, one is outdoor on/off module, and some regular dimmer switches.

When you mention changing the on/off times, do you mean for both devices or for one device (keeping the other the same).

What are you thinking as the culprit? PLM or ISY?

[oberkc]

I do not suspect ISY.  Maybe PLM, but I more suspect random comm problem.  Have you confirmed communication between legs of your electrical system?  What other electrical gadgets are on same circuit as PLM?  Have you tried moving PLM to another circuit?

[stusviews]

7 hours ago, stillen_i30 said:

All bulbs are LED (they were all the same LEDs in my old place...took them out and using them in the new place). Some are plug in modules, one is outdoor on/off module, and some regular dimmer switches.

When you mention changing the on/off times, do you mean for both devices or for one device (keeping the other the same).

What are you thinking as the culprit? PLM or ISY?

In virtually any installation, communication is not constant. Often a particular time frame is less reliable than other times. Changing the On and/or Off times helps detect such instances. Changing the trigger time for everything is often a time saver.

If you can get reliable performance at any other time then the times you are using now, then it's a communication problem, not the PLM not the ISY. What you do next depends on if you can achieve reliable performance at any particular time.

[stillen_i30]

Makes sense...i will try the varying times.

I will note however that some of the programs that are supposed to turn off in the middle of the night are not turning off at various times (ex, lamp set to turn off at 1:30am but doesn't, also outdoor light switch supposed to turn off at 5am but doesn't).

I am pretty sure my legs are both communicating but how can I make sure?

[oberkc]

10 hours ago, stillen_i30 said:

I am pretty sure my legs are both communicating but how can I make sure?

There is a process described in the manual for most of the dual-band devices.  Generally, it consists of rapidly pressing the "set" button of one device four times, and observing the response of the other dual-band devices.  You should perform this test to be sure.

[Brian H]

In the manuals. It maybe called the Communications Test or Beacon Test.  Some modules manuals have you follow a Flow Chart of Set Button sequences and LED color and flashing sequences.  Others the quick four tap set button routine.

 

[stillen_i30]

Oh ok, yeah I know about the four tap method...i used that to set up my access points and I have those confirmed they're on opposite legs. I was thinking you had some other method that I didn't know about!

[stillen_i30]

Every time I log into my admin console now, I randomly get a "Cannot communicate with XXX" message and a red "!" by the device, which if I just send an "on" or "off" command to via the admin console, the red "!" disappears. Never had this issue before.

[oberkc]

Unfortunately, things are looking bad for your comms.  Could it be a bad PLM (maybe)?  Could you have something on your electrical system that is really fouling things up (maybe)?  The trick, of course, is trying to narrow it down a bit.

I remain curious about my unanswered questions: whether you have tried moving the PLM, and what other devices you have on your circuit including the PLM.  Answers to these questions can provide some clues.

I wish I had a nice, easy process for figuring this out.  Unfortunately, all I know to do is create hypotheses based on others experience and test them out by unplugging, turning off circuit breakers, and moving things.

[stillen_i30]

I have not tried to move the PLM around yet. I will try that next.

Other items on that same circuit are basically plenty of electronics (my ISY is currently in the family room with the TV and sound bar, amazon firestick, NAS server, switch, router, etc...this is an older house without wired ethernet all over so I am limited on where I can place the PLM). However, all of those items are on separate plug with filter. Most TVs in the house are on a filter, although I admit I was not able to place all of them on filters. I will try that next.

I did install two hot water recirculation pumps (the grundfos ones) that could also be the culprit...they're both on appliancelinc modules. I am not sure I can add a filter to them since they are too high powered to do so (filterlink is 10A and these are 15A i think)

[stusviews]

52 minutes ago, stillen_i30 said:

Most TVs in the house are on a filter, although I admit I was not able to place all of them on filters. I will try that next.

I did install two hot water recirculation pumps (the grundfos ones) that could also be the culprit...they're both on appliancelinc modules. I am not sure I can add a filter to them since they are too high powered to do so (filterlink is 10A and these are 15A i think)

Plugging a device such as a TV into a filter will accomplish nothing unless you can show that the TV is causing a problem. That's easy. Unplug the TV. It must be unplugged, just turning it off is inadequate. If a particular communication problem is cured, then a filter is called for. Otherwise, not. But also check separately the soundbar and other peripherals. None of my Fire TVs are a problem.

Also, I've been running a Grunfos recirculator pump without a filter for years with no problems.

[stillen_i30]

Where the PLM is located (near sound bar, TV etc), they're all plugged into one power strip which is then plugged into the filter and then the wall. The PLM is on its own plug next to it.

I did change the times by 30 mins of the recessed outdoor lights. I did not change the times on the programs for the landscape lights. I rebuild the program for the lights and deleted the old one. This morning, all lights were off as they should be. I will continue to monitor and update. 

I have always found my insteon system to be finicky. I always attributed it to my old house having 3 separate panels (two main house panels and a third panel for all my pool equipment that was piggybacked off one of the main panels). The more devices I added (and there were quite a bit), the more problems I would experience. I am experiencing that same thing in my new place, which is much simpler (much older home). I have much fewer devices but as I've been adding more slowly, I feel I am getting more communications issues. Anyone else have this same experience with their network?

 

[oberkc]

4 hours ago, stillen_i30 said:

Anyone else have this same experience with their network?

I certainly did, and this forum has more than a couple of examples of others with similar experience.  Ultimately, besides the basics (phase coupling, clean circuit for PLM), I needed to identify the big culprits causing this problem.  For me, it was some home theater stuff, an on-demand hot water system, an electronic keyboard.  There were probably other things, but filtering these helped a lot.  Like stusviews said, one must positively identify the culprit(s).  This is rarely easy.

[stillen_i30]

Could you describe the process you developed and went through to isolate each device you discovered was an Insteon offender? Did you follow the same process for each device? How did you end up filtering the devices (like the instant hot water?).

 

Has anyone noticed that coupling the two phases both close to and as far from the circuit breaker made things worse? If so, how did you overcome this and reliable bolster your network communications?

[oberkc]

My process was, simply, trial and error.  Start unplugging things.  Start removing light bulbs.  Turn off circuit breakers.  After each, determine if comms got any better (scene tests, things that once failed now worked, etc...).  I never found a magic troubleshooting method.

My hot water heater is gas fuel, but uses electric for control system.  I simply plugged it into a filterlinc. 

I had two access points (range extenders) originally installed about two feet (actual wire distance) from the panel.  Over time, I added enough dual-band devices that I decided to remove the remove the access points to see if they mattered any more.  They did not.  On the other hand, others report good results with the passive phase coupler (signalinc?) which is mounted very near the panel in most cases.  In my mind, near the panel makes sense, but I cannot say my experience either confirms or denies that theory.