Swimming pool water level control

[frank]

Has anyone tried putting together a wireless swimming pool water level sensor and controller? If so could you share your success on this forum? I’m looking to maintain the water level in my pool to compensate for evaporation and don’t want to break up concrete to run wires.

Frank

 

 

 

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[Mustang65]

Not a swimming pool, but the main rain-barrel (10 in series/parallel). I originally set it up to use the HC-SR04 Ultrasonic distance senor, but had issues when the rain water was filling up the barrel, it would disrupt the true water level by causing LARGE ripples and the output of the sensor would go crazy. I probably could have re-did the script, but I took it out and went back to the old trusty analog float/string/switch method. Still works perfectly.

I also started a system that uses a pressure sensor to measure the barrel level. With the pressure sensor and the PVC pipe it will show the actual level without any ripples/waves.  I have a 3' piece of 1/2" PVC that has a cap on it and a MPX5010GP pressure sensor that will be secured/sealed in the cap of the PVC. The output will not fluctuate when the rain gutter is dumping rain into the barrel. As for wireless I have a bunch of ESP8266 (xmit/rec) modules, a nodeMCU ESP8266, and a lot of NFR24L01's to choose from. 

The only thing missing is "TIME"... too many other projects going at one time.

Good Luck

[glacier991]

A wireless moisture sensor and a 1/4 turn in line valve actuator in some combination with ISY programming pop into my head ....if I was starting this project.

[frank]

Not a swimming pool, but the main rain-barrel (10 in series/parallel). I originally set it up to use the HC-SR04 Ultrasonic distance senor, but had issues when the rain water was filling up the barrel, it would disrupt the true water level by causing LARGE ripples and the output of the sensor would go crazy. I probably could have re-did the script, but I took it out and went back to the old trusty analog float/string/switch method. Still works perfectly.
I also started a system that uses a pressure sensor to measure the barrel level. With the pressure sensor and the PVC pipe it will show the actual level without any ripples/waves.  I have a 3' piece of 1/2" PVC that has a cap on it and a MPX5010GP pressure sensor that will be secured/sealed in the cap of the PVC. The output will not fluctuate when the rain gutter is dumping rain into the barrel. As for wireless I have a bunch of ESP8266 (xmit/rec) modules, a nodeMCU ESP8266, and a lot of NFR24L01's to choose from. 
The only thing missing is "TIME"... too many other projects going at one time.
Good Luck

Thanks Mustang65. I’m hoping to find a wireless(waterproof) sensor that will xmit to either zwave or Insteon or possibly a dedicated receiver that I can then access in a program to control a valve inserted in the return line of the pool system.


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[frank]

A wireless moisture sensor and a 1/4 turn in line valve actuator in some combination with ISY programming pop into my head ....if I was starting this project.

Thanks glacier991. Appreciate the info


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[glacier991]

Google both and that will give you a starting point.I have some Wireless Sensor Tag water sensors. and they *can* be integrated into ISY, but easier if you can find a Z-Wave version as they do not natively communicate.

[larryllix]

The CAO Wireless Tags have a unit that takes a remote probe for water. It doesn't detect moisture but it could detect temperature if your water temperature was always cooler than your air temperature when you wanted filling. If it was cool outside you shouldn't need much refill. Not perfect but it may be a start of a better idea.

 

You are going to need some box fastened tho the side of the pool or another immovable object in order to measure height. Nivotubes can do this but may be expensive and require wires. A small box inside the cleanouts may work. CAO Tags can also sense position and a small float with one strapped to the top could work.

A laser reflections system may work at nights when waves are at a minimum. Sounds too complex but for no wires or breaking up concrete?

[frank]

The CAO Wireless Tags have a unit that takes a remote probe for water. It doesn't detect moisture but it could detect temperature if your water temperature was always cooler than your air temperature when you wanted filling. If it was cool outside you shouldn't need much refill. Not perfect but it may be a start of a better idea.
 
You are going to need some box fastened tho the side of the pool or another immovable object in order to measure height. Nivotubes can do this but may be expensive and require wires. A small box inside the cleanouts may work. CAO Tags can also sense position and a small float with one strapped to the top could work.
A laser reflections system may work at nights when waves are at a minimum. Sounds too complex but for no wires or breaking up concrete?

Thanks larryllix. Appreciate the response.


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[Scottmichaelj]

Has anyone tried putting together a wireless swimming pool water level sensor and controller? If so could you share your success on this forum? I’m looking to maintain the water level in my pool to compensate for evaporation and don’t want to break up concrete to run wires.
Frank
 
 
 
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Wouldn’t a better approach be to add a float valve and just add water when it drops automatically? I had this on my pool and it was kind of a set and forget type of thing.

[Mustang65]

They have a z-uno processor that you can design around and access with ISY. Well, you can check to see if it will interface with ISY.

You could take sensor readings when the pool pump is off, or at a specific time (6am and 11pm)...

 

https://www.amazon.com/Z-Wave-Me/b/ref=w_bl_hsx_s_hi_web_11388845011?ie=UTF8&node=11388845011&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Z-Wave.Me

 

 

[smokegrub]

I gave this some thought, and I would be reluctant to use any automated system unless I had elaborate redundancy and/or the process would only occur when someone was present. Consider a pump stuck in the on position for whatever reason. Just my thoughts.

[larryllix]

Trouble with this is the wireless prerequisite. Not many  battery operated devices sense water level.

How is this done with other pool systems? If done at all automatically, it must be done in the pump control or processing centre.

[Scottmichaelj]

I gave this some thought, and I would be reluctant to use any automated system unless I had elaborate redundancy and/or the process would only occur when someone was present. Consider a pump stuck in the on position for whatever reason. Just my thoughts.

True but most pools (if done correctly) have drains for overflow. Usually a pool refill valve will not fill faster than the drain(s). Now hopefully those drains are done properly, but that’s another issue. The key here is knowing if the refiller is stuck ON. If everything is setup properly you may never know.

[smokegrub]

8 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

True but most pools (if done correctly) have drains for overflow. Usually a pool refill valve will not fill faster than the drain(s). Now hopefully those drains are done properly, but that’s another issue. The key here is knowing if the refiller is stuck ON. If everything is setup properly you may never know.

 

Nice catch but still, most fill their pools with municipal water and the overflow goes to storm drains. Not a good scenario and one which could be very expensive.

 

[Mustang65]

13 hours ago, larryllix said:

Trouble with this is the wireless prerequisite. Not many  battery operated devices sense water level.

How is this done with other pool systems? If done at all automatically, it must be done in the pump control or processing centre.

 

43 minutes ago, smokegrub said:

Nice catch but still, most fill their pools with municipal water and the overflow goes to storm drains. Not a good scenario and one which could be very expensive.

 

A water level sensor with an electronic On/Off valve (under ISY control) on the main pool water source. ISY could monitor the water level and allow the water valve to remain open for "X" amount of time and if it has to turn off the valve it (due to time on) can text you.

[larryllix]

52 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

 

A water level sensor with an electronic On/Off valve (under ISY control) on the main pool water source. ISY could monitor the water level and allow the water valve to remain open for "X" amount of time and if it has to turn off the valve it (due to time on) can text you.

Safest bet would be a water level to send you a notification on via ISY and you go out and turn on the valve for several hours when needed. Then ISY could follow up with another notification as a reminder to run it off again.

 

I use a KPL for things like this. I have a set of four key sequences that I use in ISY and the sequence is included with the text message, how to reset the valve shut off or reset other devices. The codes are limited to all combinations of four, five or six button combinations. This could be used to acknowledge the notification to stop repeats or to acknowledge turning the valve on and off again. Of course with HA there are many ways to skin-a-cat.

[Mustang65]

16 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Safest bet would be a water level to send you a notification on via ISY and you go out and turn on the valve for several hours when needed. Then ISY could follow up with another notification as a reminder to run it off again.

 

I use a KPL for things like this. I have a set of four key sequences that I use in ISY and the sequence is included with the text message, how to reset the valve shut off or reset other devices. The codes are limited to all combinations of four, five or six button combinations. This could be used to acknowledge the notification to stop repeats or to acknowledge turning the valve on and off again. Of course with HA there are many ways to skin-a-cat.

I agree, let ISY issue a msg that the water level is low, manually turn on a valve or manually activate an electronically controlled valve. One additional item that I would add to the system would be an electronic water flow sensor. This would be good to see how much water was added using city/well water, also a way to monitor if there is a valve that is not closing 100%. I have both on my main city water supply, need to move them over to ISY sometime in the future.

[Scottmichaelj]

I had a pool, I also have a life, job, family and obligations. The evaporation pool water in certain areas could be gallons a day. Sitting there with a 3/4” hose filling it back up it tedious and can become time-consuming. Maybe I was lucky my “filler” never got stuck ON but the float with auto fill worked perfectly.

 

The negative of course is IF the filler ever got stuck ON, but like I said above most pools have drains that are larger then the water filler, so worst case I would waste water. Also the drains are normally installed higher than the fill level of the pool. Typically you set the pool about 1” lower than the drains. This way you could visibly see if the pool is too full, alerting you something maybe wrong. If the filler is stuck ON it won’t overflow the pool and second if there is heavy rain the drains should keep up. I had my home/pool for six years and NEVER had one problem with the filler and float combo. My drains were connected to the main sewer drains and went out to the street. My home was built in 2006 in a new development. I understand some don’t always have this luxury. Because my pool was “in ground” at the house level we also had a large full length “deco drain” running in before the back of our home so all water from the pool/rain would not collect and drain out as well to avoid flooding the house. Super cool system.

 

IMHO at the end of the day this was the proper setup. The only thing I would have added was a notification that the filler has been on for too long just to be in the loop, but never got to it. The house was also already built so I didn’t have as many options as a new construction home. However when I took off on vacation or long extended periods when I wasn’t needing the pool, like winter, I would just turn the auto filler off. Simple. Sometimes you don’t need to over think it and get crazy.

 

Edit: Here’s photos of my backyard and pool right before I moved out.

 

 

 

 

[frank]

Thanks to everyone who responded. Sure do appreciate all the feedback


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[MrBill]

On 3/31/2018 at 7:52 PM, larryllix said:

How is this done with other pool systems?

 

My pool literally has a toilet float.  It's located under a pop-off cover that from the top (on the pool deck) looks like a skimmer cover, but pop it open and literally the inside is a Fluidmaster 400AHG toilet float valve.   It's water source/fail-safe is a dedicated zone on the sprinkler system, we just set the pool to water from 6-8 at night, if it's full the float valve is closed.

The problem is:

On 3/30/2018 at 3:03 PM, frank said:

.....and don’t want to break up concrete to run wires.

if this wasn't plumbed in during construction, it still involves breaking concrete. 

It would be possible to plumb in to existing plumbing, away from poolside, but would have to be made to only fill when the pump is NOT running since it uses the principle that under rest water seeks it's own level.

 

 

[larryllix]

5 hours ago, MrBill said:

 

My pool literally has a toilet float.  It's located under a pop-off cover that from the top (on the pool deck) looks like a skimmer cover, but pop it open and literally the inside is a Fluidmaster 400AHG toilet float valve.   It's water source/fail-safe is a dedicated zone on the sprinkler system, we just set the pool to water from 6-8 at night, if it's full the float valve is closed.

The problem is:

if this wasn't plumbed in during construction, it still involves breaking concrete. 

It would be possible to plumb in to existing plumbing, away from poolside, but would have to be made to only fill when the pump is NOT running since it uses the principle that under rest water seeks it's own level.

 

 

What does the water float operate?
If just a mechanical shutoff,are you are saying it is solid  enough to shut off city sourced water pressure?

[frank]

What does the water float operate?
If just a mechanical shutoff,are you are saying it is solid  enough to shut off city sourced water pressure?

My biggest problem is I do not have a float and need some wireless method to detect when the water is to a level I have pre selected which I could then use to control a solenoid to allow water to enter the pool. Either an Insteon or zwave method to determine the water level would be the preferred solution.


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[frank]

My biggest problem is I do not have a float and need some wireless method to detect when the water is to a level I have pre selected which I could then use to control a solenoid to allow water to enter the pool. Either an Insteon or zwave method to determine the water level would be the preferred solution.


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I was thinking of using an Insteon water leak sensor but do not know if when it senses the water will it quickly drain the battery? Does someone have a suggestion on how this may be implemented? Will it continue transmitting as long as it senses water?


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[Teken]

7 minutes ago, frank said:

I was thinking of using an Insteon water leak sensor but do not know if when it senses the water will it quickly drain the battery? Does someone have a suggestion on how this may be implemented? Will it continue transmitting as long as it senses water?


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You would be better off using the open - close (Trigger Linc) module as it has internal I/O contacts to allow external wiring to be used. I have been doing this for years with great results and its a easy deployment. The Leak Sensor has no provisions to attach external wiring unless you decide to solder to the bottom nickel round feet.

RE: Transmit -> The sensor will transmit once its wet and once it becomes dry. Since the Open - Close sensor indicates (Open-Close) you can simply rename them in the AC to reflect wet vs dry. 

 

[larryllix]

5 hours ago, frank said:

I was thinking of using an Insteon water leak sensor but do not know if when it senses the water will it quickly drain the battery? Does someone have a suggestion on how this may be implemented? Will it continue transmitting as long as it senses water?


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The Leak Detectors have to be reset after sensing liquid. If you immerse them, they are done as it gets into the electronics. For very shallow water they are OK but for deeper levels they become a one time deal and then garbage.