Insteon Motion Sensor - can't change options using ISY

[Krusty66]

I cannot figure out any way to get the isy to write to a Motion Sensor 2.  The MS is in the system and behave as expected given the factory settings.  It triggers on when motion is detected, waits 37 seconds, then reverts to off.  I can see all of this in the Admin Console.  I need to change the timeout period, but there appears no way to get the isy to write to the device.  There are two tiny poles inside the unit and one has a jumper on it when the unit is new.  Given the need to tell it to communicate with the ISY on the old version (and using a tiny internal jumper), I figured I'd play around with the jumper (which is completely undocumented) in this unit.  But it seems to do nothing.  I have tried with and without jumper between the two poles, along with in and out of pairing mode and just cannot get the isy to write new options to the device. 

If this is any hint, with the jumper connecting the two poles, the device will operate with factory settings.  That is, it will sense motion, flip to on, timeout at 37 seconds, flip to off.  With the jumper not in use (which is how it arrives from the factory), the MS will sense motion, trigger on, then remain on forever.  Or at least long enough that I lose patience.  So it appears that the jumper must be on it to function, which is odd because it comes with the jumper off.

Also, when you try to write to the device, it goes thru all the motions but ends with "cannot communicate" with the device.  So clearly the isy is trying to write to it, but can't.

I'm totally stumped.  Anyone?

[cnutco]

Yeah... I feel your pain. Same here. I am just waiting for Insteon to cooperate with ISY. If you need it to work the way you want now, you can only change the settings with an Insteon Hub.

Some people were talking about buying the hubs for cheap on eBay or amazon just for this purpose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jasonthorell]

I didn't even realize that was my issue (can not get the stupid motion light to turn off), as I was fine with the default timeout and function....I was considering putting a dab of black paint over the diode!

[larryllix]

10 hours ago, Krusty66 said:

I cannot figure out any way to get the isy to write to a Motion Sensor 2.  The MS is in the system and behave as expected given the factory settings.  It triggers on when motion is detected, waits 37 seconds, then reverts to off.  I can see all of this in the Admin Console.  I need to change the timeout period, but there appears no way to get the isy to write to the device.  There are two tiny poles inside the unit and one has a jumper on it when the unit is new.  Given the need to tell it to communicate with the ISY on the old version (and using a tiny internal jumper), I figured I'd play around with the jumper (which is completely undocumented) in this unit.  But it seems to do nothing.  I have tried with and without jumper between the two poles, along with in and out of pairing mode and just cannot get the isy to write new options to the device. 

If this is any hint, with the jumper connecting the two poles, the device will operate with factory settings.  That is, it will sense motion, flip to on, timeout at 37 seconds, flip to off.  With the jumper not in use (which is how it arrives from the factory), the MS will sense motion, trigger on, then remain on forever.  Or at least long enough that I lose patience.  So it appears that the jumper must be on it to function, which is odd because it comes with the jumper off.

Also, when you try to write to the device, it goes thru all the motions but ends with "cannot communicate" with the device.  So clearly the isy is trying to write to it, but can't.

I'm totally stumped.  Anyone?

I dn't have any of that model but....

That would be the "Send On Only" jumper and that would be normal behaviour.

ISY only knows what it is told. With the jumper on it will show On and Off as the MS sends both.
With the jumper off ISY will only ever show On as it should never receive an Off signal. This is the way most people use the MSes. Ecah time motion is sensed IST will receive an On signal and then use ISY programs to dthe Off timing of the light(s).

Using this mode, 'If status MS' should never change, while 'if Control MS is Switched On' will see motion each time.

[Krusty66]

I figured the jumper did that (acted as the ON-only jumper).  With that now known, the question remains - how do you communicate with the MS from ISY and change the MS options?  There must be some trick to getting the MS to where it will listen to the ISY and allow it to write to it.  The old MS had a jumper for that purpose.  This one must have something similar, but of course, it's completely undocumented.

[larryllix]

Post #2 from cnutco

[Techman]

2 hours ago, Krusty66 said:

I figured the jumper did that (acted as the ON-only jumper).  With that now known, the question remains - how do you communicate with the MS from ISY and change the MS options?  There must be some trick to getting the MS to where it will listen to the ISY and allow it to write to it.  The old MS had a jumper for that purpose.  This one must have something similar, but of course, it's completely undocumented.

Bottom line - The ISY with 4.6.2 firmware cannot change the configuration of the motion sensor. Being that the sensor is software configured you'll have to accept the default settings unless you get a 3rd party controller to configure it.  Future releases of the ISY firmware will support the sensor

[Krusty66]

I'm on version 5.0.12 which supposedly supports the new Motion Sensor.  4.6.2 doesn't recognized the new MS at all.  Or rather, it treats them like the old sensor.  5.0.12 recognizes them by name and product ID.  So it ought to support configuring them.

[Techman]

4 minutes ago, Krusty66 said:

I'm on version 5.0.12 which supposedly supports the new Motion Sensor.  4.6.2 doesn't recognized the new MS at all.  Or rather, it treats them like the old sensor.  5.0.12 recognizes them by name and product ID.  So it ought to support configuring them.

For now you'll need to install the sensor as a 2842-222 motion sensor if you want to configure it with the 5.x.x firmware release. Eventually the 5.xx will fully support the new sensor..

 

[Krusty66]

Will it configure if I do that?  Particularly the timeout period?  I ask because the old MS had a jumper to tell ISY that it could write to it.  The new MS doesn't have that jumper. 

[larryllix]

19 minutes ago, Krusty66 said:

Will it configure if I do that?  Particularly the timeout period?  I ask because the old MS had a jumper to tell ISY that it could write to it.  The new MS doesn't have that jumper. 

Post #2 from cnutco

[Techman]

10 hours ago, Krusty66 said:

Will it configure if I do that?  Particularly the timeout period?  I ask because the old MS had a jumper to tell ISY that it could write to it.  The new MS doesn't have that jumper. 

The jumper on the old MS allowed it to be software configured from the ISY.

I'm not currently using 5.xx so I can't tell you for sure what's supported, give it a try.

[Krusty66]

On 4/11/2018 at 8:59 AM, larryllix said:

That would be the "Send On Only" jumper and that would be normal behaviour.

ISY only knows what it is told. With the jumper on it will show On and Off as the MS sends both.
With the jumper off ISY will only ever show On as it should never receive an Off signal.

I'm beginning to conclude that these sensors are completely unpredictable and not useful at present.  I just tested several times with the jumper on and off and in either situation it triggers ON, waits 37 seconds, then sends the OFF signal to the ISY.  Now, I know for sure I had it where it would not send OFF (read my very first post).  But now I can't make that happen.

Half hour later and much experimentation:  There appears to be no consistent way to get these MS's into or out of Send On Only mode.  If fact, I finally have one in that mode and the jumper is off.  How did I get it there?  I have two of them.  I opened up both (battery out), took jumper off both, held set button and replaced battery on both (to do a factory reset), lo and behold - one is in Send On Only mode and the other is not.  Exact same steps landed them in different places.  It's like they behave purely randomly.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Krusty66 said:

I'm beginning to conclude that these sensors are completely unpredictable and not useful at present.  I just tested several times with the jumper on and off and in either situation it triggers ON, waits 37 seconds, then sends the OFF signal to the ISY.  Now, I know for sure I had it where it would not send OFF (read my very first post).  But now I can't make that happen.

Half hour later and much experimentation:  There appears to be no consistent way to get these MS's into or out of Send On Only mode.  If fact, I finally have one in that mode and the jumper is off.  How did I get it there?  I have two of them.  I opened up both (battery out), took jumper off both, held set button and replaced battery on both (to do a factory reset), lo and behold - one is in Send On Only mode and the other is not.  Exact same steps landed them in different places.  It's like they behave purely randomly.

Yeah, confusing. What I would do is use the one that sends On only in a scene with a lamp for real fast operations. Use the On/Off sender in a program that only looks at On signals.

Until UDI gets a protocol spec from SmartiePants,  ISY will not be able to change the settings anyway. That is unless you can find somebody with a SH Hub that you can "borrow" for the settings.

 

The program for the On/Off unit would ignore Off signals like most of us do anyway. You will detect a slight delay and every MS motion sensed will extend the wait timer.

If
.....Control MS is switched On
Then
.... set lamp On.
.... Wait 2 minutes
.... set lamp Off.
Else
....empty

[Goose66]

1 hour ago, Krusty66 said:

I'm beginning to conclude that these sensors are completely unpredictable and not useful at present.  I just tested several times with the jumper on and off and in either situation it triggers ON, waits 37 seconds, then sends the OFF signal to the ISY.  Now, I know for sure I had it where it would not send OFF (read my very first post).  But now I can't make that happen.

Half hour later and much experimentation:  There appears to be no consistent way to get these MS's into or out of Send On Only mode.  If fact, I finally have one in that mode and the jumper is off.  How did I get it there?  I have two of them.  I opened up both (battery out), took jumper off both, held set button and replaced battery on both (to do a factory reset), lo and behold - one is in Send On Only mode and the other is not.  Exact same steps landed them in different places.  It's like they behave purely randomly.

I don't believe that is what the jumper is for. Both of mine came with that jumper off, and I have had to do a factory reset on one of them but not the other. However, they both behave the same way you described as yours behaving - send and On on motion and (some unconfigurable time) later, send an Off.

[Krusty66]

58 minutes ago, larryllix said:

The program for the On/Off unit would ignore Off signals like most of us do anyway. You will detect a slight delay and every MS motion sensed will extend the wait timer.

If
.....Control MS is switched On
Then
.... set lamp On.
.... Wait 2 minutes
.... set lamp Off.
Else
....empty

Even if I can get one into Send On Only mode, they bust back out of that mode eventually (on their own), and go back to sending On and Off.   

Regarding that program, that's exactly what I did, but that doesn't work.  The problem is that as soon as it sends the Off signal (at the 37 second mark), the Then statement gets cut off and never fully executes.  IOW, it was in the 2 minute wait when the Off signal came, so the next line (set lamp off) never happens.  This is because the IF is related to Status, not "is switched On".  So the program would be:

IF

MS Status is On

Then

Set lamp on

Wait 2 minutes

Set lamp off

Else

No actions.

This kills the program and leaves the lamp on until you turn it off yourself.  This is why I started out looking for a way to set the timeout period longer (which I have done on my older MS unit).  If you set the timeout to 3 minutes, then your program would fully execute and the light would turn off.  After 3 minutes, the program would be able to run again.

[larryllix]

13 minutes ago, Krusty66 said:

Even if I can get one into Send On Only mode, they bust back out of that mode eventually (on their own), and go back to sending On and Off.   

Regarding that program, that's exactly what I did, but that doesn't work.  The problem is that as soon as it sends the Off signal (at the 37 second mark), the Then statement gets cut off and never fully executes.  IOW, it was in the 2 minute wait when the Off signal came, so the next line (set lamp off) never happens.  This is because the IF is related to Status, not "is switched On".  So the program would be:

IF

MS Status is On

Then

Set lamp on

Wait 2 minutes

Set lamp off

Else

No actions.

This kills the program and leaves the lamp on until you turn it off yourself.  This is why I started out looking for a way to set the timeout period longer (which I have done on my older MS unit).  If you set the timeout to 3 minutes, then your program would fully execute and the light would turn off.  After 3 minutes, the program would be able to run again.

If you used "Control MS is Switched On" it doesn't matter how many times the MS sends Off. Off is a different signal that you are not testing for. Off cannot affect the program I posted.

[Krusty66]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

If you used "Control MS is Switched On" it doesn't matter how many times the MS sends Off. Off is a different signal that you are not testing for. Off cannot affect the program I posted.

Interesting.  When you said that the first time I searched for that option.  Just searched again and is not an option for me.  "Control" is an option (rather than "Status" that I am using), but when a MS is selected it has "Is" or "Is Not" and "On" and "Off" as options. No "Switched".   Running 5.0.12 on ISY and Admin Console.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Krusty66 said:

Interesting.  When you said that the first time I searched for that option.  Just searched again and is not an option for me.  "Control" is an option (rather than "Status" that I am using), but when a MS is selected it has "Is" or "Is Not" and "On" and "Off" as options. No "Switched".   Running 5.0.12 on ISY and Admin Console.

Right under "Status" on the pulldown menu.

 

[Krusty66]

OK - "Control" "Is" "On" in the condition setting produces "Is Switched On" in the program language.  Without this being documented very well anywhere, I used normal human logic.  "Status is on" and "Control is on" sound like the same thing to me.  And both sound like once an Off signal is sent, they'd become false.  Now "switched on" - that's a different story.  That implies that once it is switched on, the event has happened and nothing can change that.  Unfortunately (for me) the Condition box doesn't say "switched on".  It says "is on".  Those are two completely different things.  But alas, the program language changes "is on" to "is switched on".  Jeez.  Thanks for pointing this out.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Krusty66 said:

OK - "Control" "Is" "On" in the condition setting produces "Is Switched On" in the program language.  Without this being documented very well anywhere, I used normal human logic.  "Status is on" and "Control is on" sound like the same thing to me.  And both sound like once an Off signal is sent, they'd become false.  Now "switched on" - that's a different story.  That implies that once it is switched on, the event has happened and nothing can change that.  Unfortunately (for me) the Condition box doesn't say "switched on".  It says "is on".  Those are two completely different things.  But alas, the program language changes "is on" to "is switched on".  Jeez.  Thanks for pointing this out.

It's a learning curve for sure. Control switched On/Off are independant signals. Status is a state. With On only from the MS, the state will never change.

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