Best mid-level NVR?

[jasont]

13 hours ago, larryllix said:

Very small text tells me it doesn't work with their app unless you use an NVR. That needs to be investigated in a few weeks when it arrives.

I think the seller's app disclaimer is probably based on the assumption that you'll use Dahua's cloud service to initiate connections to the camera and that this camera looks like it's only intended for use within China.

Both Dahua and Hikvision make special, low-priced models for the Chinese market.  These models are usually based off of "international models" (to be sold overseas), but they'll typically have some cost-cutting measures, like some plastic parts (instead of being all metal) and maybe some advanced firmware features disabled.  

To reduce these cameras from being marked-up and sold overseas, the firmware for these cameras only supports the Chinese language.  "Entrepreneurs" have found ways to replace the official Chinese-only firmware with a not-official firmware that adds multiple languages, which then makes them useable outside of China.  The downside is that this not-official firmware can't be upgraded.

Regarding the comment about not being able to use the Dahua app with this camera...  The Dahua app offers multiple methods to connect to the camera.  One popular method (because it allows folks to connect remotely to their camera without using port forwarding or having to setup an incoming VPN) is called "P2P", which is basically NAT traversal.  I think this feature of their remote app will not work if they detect that you're connecting to a Chinese market camera (outside of China).  If you set the Dahua app to directly connect to the camera (like Scott was mentioning), I'd be surprised if it didn't work.  You can also use non-Dahua apps like TinyCam, etc to connect directly to the camera.   To view the camera remotely, you'll need to come up with a secure solution.  Definitely do not port forward!

[jasont]

For anyone looking for more info on professional-level security cameras, I’d really recommend poking around on the forums over at ipcamtalk.com.  Much like here, it’s a friendly community of folks willing to give a hand, and a ton of threads with good info.  It’s a great place to go to look for info on a specific camera model before buying.

For anyone looking at buying Dahua equipment, I’d recommend including in your search the “go to” vendor that just about everyone over at ipcamtalk uses — Andy from Empire Tech.  His forum name over there is EMPIRETECANDY (which drives me crazy as my eyes go straight to CANDY).  He’s based in China, orders direct from Dahua, and uses DHL to ship quickly… 3-5 days to the US.  Shipping is included in the price.

What I like about him is that he’s genuinely involved with the forum.  He’s active in threads answering questions, and he shares a level of information (product road maps, etc) with the forum that’s usually restricted to the professional installer community.  Also, when Dahua has a new model camera come out (that’s in the price range of what folks over there play in), he’ll often times send a unit to a forum member in exchange for starting a new thread with a review.

His prices are good, and he sells from Dahua’s “international line”, which are models designed to be sold worldwide… so no worries about firmware not being upgradeable, or the product not working with their app.  What’s awesome about the “international line” is that it contains a ton of models that Dahua in your country decided not to sell.  For example, for whatever stupid reason, Dahua US never released the incredibly popular Starlight vari-focal turret (or anything even close to it).  Andy has been selling that model since the fall of 2016, and I think he said he’s sold over 4500 units of it!

Andy buys the OEM version of the Dahua hardware.  It’s the same hardware/firmware as Dahua’s “regular stuff”, it just doesn't have the Dahua logo.  It’s designed for companies to buy, apply their brand, and then resell as their own…. Lorex and Q-See are two popular companies that buy/resell OEM Dahua, although they don’t seem to get the latest models like Andy does.

Dahua doesn’t offer direct support or warranty for OEM versions, … they expect their resellers to handle that.  Andy offers his own hardware warranty and tech support, although chances are extremely high any question you have is already asked/answered on the ipcamtalk forums.  And for the few that aren’t, Andy will work with Dahua support on your behalf.  He’s helped folks at ipcamtalk get a few firmware issues fixed over the past two years.

Andy’s main store is on AliExpress.  For folks that prefer not to order via AliExpress, if you email him what you want, he’ll send an invoice via PayPal.  He’s also starting to sell a few models on Amazon, although the prices/shipping look a little different.  I’ve always ordered directly from his AliExpress store or emailed him.

Anyhow, it’s probably worth doing a price check through his store for Dahua stuff, just to see.

His AliExpress shop:
AliExpress
(the Starlight 2MP category is what most folks are interested in, but he's got all sorts of stuff)

His Amazon shop:
Amazon shop
(much smaller offering)

His vendor sub-forum on ipcamtalk:
EmpireTech Andy
(he’s been a vendor on there for years, but his dedicated sub-forum is only a few weeks old)

[kohai]

At some point I need to get energetic enough to climb in my attic and see if there is any way to get camera cat cable down to my basement utility room.

[Scottmichaelj]

Thanks Scott!
I understand that POE uses a higher voltage.
Is POE a standard voltage, a universal voltage, or a particulat voltage dependant on the device you are feeding?
Were you recommending this particular brand/device or just a sample?
(Darn amazon won't show a price for that unit???)
What about combo devices like such?
https://www.amazon.ca/BQLZR-Injector-Ethernet-Adapter-Indicator/dp/B00S5RP3GQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1528289900&sr=8-4&keywords=POE+injector

I think the TPLink PoE injector is around $20 USD. Not all PoE cameras have the same requirements. Most fixed position cameras are ok at about 12W or so but PTZ larger cameras can require more power for their control. Managed PoE switches have “X” amount power and then you can allocate how much power per port you want. For example the Cisco SG series switches. Switches also have different bandwidth and managed switches help prioritize specific ports for cameras vs lower priority ports. In my home I have a fully managed PoE switch just for my cameras and then a separate managed (nonPoE) just for my devices. I use VPN and have zero port forwarding for security and use a SPF+ connection between the two switches to make sure I have full bandwidth between both switches. My NVR handles the primary stream at 4K 30fps on 9 Cameras so far then my apps use the secondary lower resolution stream.

As jastont states there’s some OEM cameras you can by and modify firmware but as I previously posted sometimes the hassle for the savings isn’t worth it. Especially if your installing these professionally for clients. When This remind me when I was young I would buy lower clocked intel cpus then overclock them, tweak etc. It took weeks if not months to get everything dialed in and a lot of hours. As time goes on this doesn’t interest me any longer just to save a couple bux and as I don’t have a lot of time as before, my time is more valuable to me. I rather spend the money and just get something that works out if the box. For me Hikvision Cameras and Hikvision NVRs fit my personal needs perfectly but the great thing is that this isn’t a one size fits all. There are many choices to choose from in this area.

[Scottmichaelj]

At some point I need to get energetic enough to climb in my attic and see if there is any way to get camera cat cable down to my basement utility room.

Sometimes it’s better to make sure you have a REALLY good wireless then make the camera wireless using something like a MikroTik AP like

https://mikrotik.com/product/RB941-2nD

Less time, stress, just have to pay for better wireless equipment to handle it. But if it’s just a few cameras you could be ok.

[jasont]

1 hour ago, Scottmichaelj said:

As jastont states there’s some OEM cameras you can by and modify firmware but as I previously posted sometimes the hassle for the savings isn’t worth it.

I know this isn’t the case for all manufacturers, so I wanted to clarify that the Dahua OEM product that I was talking about is the same hardware and firmware, minus the logo.

Out of the box, the OEM version “just works” the same way the more expensive logo’ed version does.

The only difference in the out-of-box experience is that when you connect to the web interface to configure the camera, the OEM version has a graphic that says “IPCAM” instead of the Dahua logo.  All other camera settings, features and capabilities are the same.  

I think Dahua doing this is what has made it the most popular brand for the DIY-geek crowd, at least the masses over on ipcamtalk.  

[Scottmichaelj]

I know some official firmware can be flashed on these grey cameras too.

[jasont]

19 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

I know some official firmware can be flashed on these grey cameras too.

Dahua wrote the firmware that ships on the OEM versions of their equipment.  It's official firmware.  It's their regular firmware, minus their logo.

But to your point, yes, you can flash the logo'ed version of the Dahua firmware onto the OEM version of their equipment (because it's the same equipment).

You can also flash the no-logo OEM version of the Dahua firmware onto the logo'ed version of their equipment (again, because it's the same equipment).

I feel like Dahau's official OEM version of hardware (that folks on ipcamtalk buy a ton of) might be getting confused with the unofficial [censored]ized Chinese-market Dahua hardware (that resellers hack the firmware of(to add English language support and resell).  Two totally different things.  OEM versions are official -- Dahua literally makes them and ships them with an official Dahua firmware.  The Chinese-market hacked stuff does not have official Dahua firmware, and Dahua is doing what they can to shut that market down.

[larryllix]

I guess I am going to find out what it has and doesn't to see how it works.. I am a bit of an IP camera virgin but I have an alternative place to use it anyway.

I have an old D-Link cam but the motion and access is basically useless for anything security and it has just become a novelty.

[Scottmichaelj]

I guess I am going to find out what it has and doesn't to see how it works.. I am a bit of an IP camera virgin but I have an alternative place to use it anyway.
I have an old D-Link cam but the motion and access is basically useless for anything security and it has just become a novelty.

Big boy cameras are fun

[jasont]

9 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Big boy cameras are fun

 

Definitely fun, but with a high possibility of becoming addicting.   

[larryllix]

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 2:42 PM, kohai said:

At some point I need to get energetic enough to climb in my attic and see if there is any way to get camera cat cable down to my basement utility room.

That can be fun.

Clear the insulation awy from a wall section top plate and drill a 3/4" -1" speedbore hole down through. Now figure out where that lines up in the basement and drill a reciprical hole up though the bottom plate 2x4 and floor sheeting. This can be a little nerve wracking and may require some measuring from floor registers and/or plumbing to get your spot. Avoid wall sections that contain light switches and lots of wiring congestion.

Attach a  3/8" to 1/2" steel hex nut on a string and  dangle it down through the hole from the attic. Keep bouncing it from the attic, down through the joist cavity onto the bottom plate until you feel it drop through. Tie off the top end of the string to a truss member or cross pice of wood or pipe so you don't lose it. This may take a while to get it to bounce and swing right into that bottom hole. Now you have a string from attic to basement to pull a POE cable through. Make sure all cable ends are taped down smooth so they don't get caught while pulling in or if you get caught on something and have to pull it back out.

I ran several pices of PVC pipe top to bottom while in the building stages for my future whatever happens. Here I am. Supposedly, that is a fire no-no but a 3/4" and a 1" chimney hole is not a big deal for fire spread once it has gone that far.

[Goose66]

As to the PVC from basement to attic, you can cap your PVC on both ends to get through an inspection, and then cut the caps off after you move in. If you want to maintain fire safety, just spray foam the ends after pulling your cable through.

[larryllix]

As to the PVC from basement to attic, you can cap your PVC on both ends to get through an inspection, and then cut the caps off after you move in. If you want to maintain fire safety, just spray foam the ends after pulling your cable through.

The small town inspector was too busy marvelling at the fabulous flooring I put in to notice.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

On 6/6/2018 at 11:06 PM, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Big boy cameras are fun

 

Got the cam today. Instructions were so small I had to use a magnifying glass to see most of them, if at all. They translations were bad and very confused and I finally disregarded them as most wrong. Went to the Dahua website and after a few hours found their app to download. Doesn't work under linux, android and only on Windows. Very frustrating process.

Anyway I was seriously wrong about the cam. The controls were zoom only, focus was auto/manual, but the PT was take apart and manually position. I screwed up on that part in my browsing/searching and the cam is going back. Of course with amazon.com that will cost me for shipping **SIGH** and a 30km.  trip to some shipping depot, but the cam is basically useless for what I want. Very few IP cam apps would access it the model.

Man! It's sure is hard to find a PTZ control in the software when the cam doesn't have it!

[jasont]

12 hours ago, larryllix said:

Man! It's sure is hard to find a PTZ control in the software when the cam doesn't have it!

Larry, were you looking to use this indoor or outdoors?

[larryllix]

2 minutes ago, jasont said:

Larry, were you looking to use this indoor or outdoors?

Outdoors for people approaching the door as well as remote viewing the snow levels and removal person if I am vacationing. I found the whole Dahua web experience really amateurish most due to bad translation problems. After the camera was disconnected I got a message "The connection is overtime".

[jasont]

FWIW, that wasn’t a Dahua web experience.  Dahua only makes that model camera for China, so the Dahua firmware/web experience is only in Chinese.  Any English you saw was from some random person on the Internet who hacked Dahua’s firmware to add what they consider English.  

Here’s the Dahua model that I use on my front porch for watching the front door (and being able to manually PTZ around to see what’s going on in the front yard):
https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/review-dahua-sd1a203t-gn-starlight-mini-ptz.27588/

Here’s the link to it on Dahua’s site (you may have to click on it twice if their cookie policy interrupts the first attempt):
https://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/productDetail/19711?us

Check out the user manuals in the Download > User Manual tabs.  Notice the Firmware tab, where you can always download the latest official Dahua firmware.  These are some of the differences between buying a hacked Dahua consumer-level camera  (never meant to be sold outside of China) vs. buying the professional-grade models designed to be sold worldwide.  

 

[larryllix]

FWIW, that wasn’t a Dahua web experience.  Dahua only makes that model camera for China, so the Dahua firmware/web experience is only in Chinese.  Any English you saw was from some random person on the Internet who hacked Dahua’s firmware to add what they consider English.   Here’s the Dahua model that I use on my front porch for watching the front door (and being able to manually PTZ around to see what’s going on in the front yard):

https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/review-dahua-sd1a203t-gn-starlight-mini-ptz.27588/

Here’s the link to it on Dahua’s site (you may have to click on it twice if their cookie policy interrupts the first attempt):

https://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/productDetail/19711?us

Check out the user manuals in the Download > User Manual tabs.  Notice the Firmware tab, where you can always download the latest official Dahua firmware.  These are some of the differences between buying a hacked Dahua consumer-level camera  (never meant to be sold outside of China) vs. buying the professional-grade models designed to be sold worldwide.  

 

 

Yup. That was the website the pamphlet indicated to use. 

 

I figured it would have translation problems as soon as it popped up with a cookie permission with some disoriented English grammar.

 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

[Scottmichaelj]

And this is why I use Hikvision or LTS Security Cameras. Both have full tech support and in the USA.

[larryllix]

3 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

And this is why I use Hikvision or LTS Security Cameras. Both have full tech support and in the USA.

Well they make it look like you have been connected to a US website but the translations are not the best all around. 

[jasont]

4 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

And this is why I use Hikvision or LTS Security Cameras. Both have full tech support and in the USA.

That's an odd thing to say.  @laryllix could have as easily purchased one of the hacked HIKVISION models floating around on eBay/Amazon, and Hikvision's full tech support in the USA would have been of zero assistance. 

Side note: Dahua has full-tech support in the USA too.

@larryllix, I'm sorry your first Dahua experience was with a hacked model (meant for use within China only) that nobody with any Dahua experience would have recommended.  If you're interested in their proper models, check out ipcamtalk.

If you go after a HIkvision, be aware that folks do the same thing --- take Hikvision models only meant for sale within China, hack the firmware (to replace the Chines prompts with their attempt at English), and the resell them outside of China to folks who are unaware of the pitfalls of that model.  I'm sure @Scottmichaelj would hate to see you have a crappy Hikvision experience with one of those!

[Scottmichaelj]

That's an odd thing to say.  @laryllix could have as easily purchased one of the hacked HIKVISION models floating around on eBay/Amazon, and Hikvision's full tech support in the USA would have been of zero assistance. 
Side note: Dahua has full-tech support in the USA too.
[mention=4697]larryllix[/mention], I'm sorry your first Dahua experience was with a hacked model (meant for use within China only) that nobody with any Dahua experience would have recommended.  If you're interested in their proper models, check out ipcamtalk.
If you go after a HIkvision, be aware that folks do the same thing --- take Hikvision models only meant for sale within China, hack the firmware (to replace the Chines prompts with their attempt at English), and the resell them outside of China to folks who are unaware of the pitfalls of that model.  I'm sure@Scottmichaelj would hate to see you have a crappy Hikvision experience with one of those!

If you buy from trusted vendors as an authorized reseller you never have to worry they are not 100% OEM. I been an AV integrator for a long time and never once have had issues with Hik or LTS. Like I said before but authentic product and you get what you pay for. Dahua and Sunbra are both China first, grey market firmware secondary.

Outside the cam forum are you an installer? What do you have installed at your home? How many installs have you done and what brands have you installed? What is the reason for the Dahua loyalty? Just curious.

[jasont]

Quote

If you buy from trusted vendors as an authorized reseller you never have to worry they are not 100% OEM.

I agree, but I'd rephrase it just as "buy from someone you trust".  I don't think authorized resellers are the only trusted sellers.

Take yourself, for example.

On the forum here, you are someone trusted when it comes to buying an alarm system. IIRC, you are not an authorized reseller of that product.  You sell ... for a good bit less ... the same 100% OEM "authentic product" that folks here would pay a good deal more if they bought from a reseller.

Quote

Dahua and Sunbra are both China first, grey market firmware secondary. 

Uh, Hikvision is the epitome of a "China first" company -- the damn Chinese gov't owns a significant portion of the company!!!!!! 

Wall Street Journal:
Surveillance Cameras Made by China Are Hanging All Over the U.S.

Quote

All the devices were manufactured by a single company, Hangzhou Hikvision Digital Technology . It is 42%-owned by the Chinese government.

 

Quote

Outside the cam forum are you an installer? What do you have installed at your home? How many installs have you done and what brands have you installed? What is the reason for the Dahua loyalty? Just curious.

I'm a geek, not an installer.  I get excited about stuff (like home automation, which is how I ended up on the forum here), learn as much as I can about it, then start playing with it.  I like to keep up with a field vs. just follow a specific company.  As much as I love my ISY and follow UDI here, I still follow other stuff in the home automation market.  

I own two Hikvision and ten Dahua cameras.  I'm loyal to the best camera for the job -- I am not loyal to a company.

IMO, this is what most geeks getting into "better than consumer-grade" security cameras seem to want:

1. An outdoor camera with great low-light image quality (i.e. dusk-dawn)
2. Made by a manufacturer that's known and trusted
3. Is an international model that receives regular firmware updates
4. Can be obtained in a trusted manner (i.e. no eBay/Amazon/AliExpress buys from unknown vendors)
5. Strong community reviews and peer-support
6. Is available in different form factors

Here's why my recent cameras have been Dahua:

Dahua was first-to-market for sub-$300 professional-grade cameras that use Sony's awesome STARVIS image processor, which significantly increases a cameras low-light (dusk-dawn) image quality.  Hikvision was about half-a-year late to this market, and since then has been ridiculously slow with adding models in different form-factors.

Hikvision is the world's largest surveillance system manufacturer.  Dahua is the world's second largest.  Sunba doesn't have a rank..

Dahua offers a much more robust lineup of low-light cameras.  Need an unobtrusive mini-dome (or mini-dome PTZ) for your porch?  Need a vandal-proof varifocal turret (because you need a lens size other than 2.7/3.6/6mm)?  Need a bullet with 5 or 12x magnification so you do license plates recognition from 50-150 feet away?  These are all models that Dahua offers that Hikvision still doesn't.

Dahua firmware updates have been available to the public on their website for years.  Hikvision used to only release firmware updates to authorized resellers until they started losing US business/gov't contracts when word of their firmware backdoors and other security issues became common knowledge.

As trusted as you are on the forum here as a source to buy alarms from (for a significant savings vs. paying to buy the exact same equipment from an authorized reseller), there is the equivalent of you on ipcamtalk for buying Dahua equipment.  Nobody has found an equivalent person for Hikvision equipment.

When Dahua was first-to-market with Sony STARVIS low-light cameras, the geek momentum on ipcamtalk started moving from Hikvision to Dahua.  Hikvision has done nothing to sway that back.  Now-a-days there are tons of owner reviews (quality reviews) and peer support for Dahua equipment... there's significantly less for Hikvision.  This is a HUGE change.  Before late 2016, almost all of the momentum was behind Hikvision.

I like both Hikvision and Dahua (and on that note, I'd probably never consider a Sunba).  I have no problems recommending a Hikvision product over a Dahua product, if I think it's the best choice.  

[larryllix]

The Dahua website only seemed to offer any support via Windows O/Ses.. Language translation problems made it difficult to find your way around though, for a newbie.

Does Dahua or Hikvision have Android apps to support their cameras directly without an NVR? For the Dahuas I couldn't find any in the playstore..

What are the differences between using a cheap NVR, and expensive NVR ad a raw camera access?