Where to ask general alarm panel wiring question?

[Andrew]

Hi all,

I have a new security setup (using a Qolsys IQ-8s). The Qolsys unit replaces my current setup, and I can wire my current zones into the new board.

However, I have a few questions regarding wiring/resistors as well as for integration with my z-wave stuff (once the wiring part is taken care of...)

Where's the best part of the forum to ask about this?

thanks

[Goose66]

Not trying to be flippant, but probably on an Qolsys IQ-8s forum. The wiring and resistors and the corresponding panel settings will be very particular to your board. In addition, there may be downstream resistors in your walls and door/window jams from your old panel, so that needs to be accounted for.

[Andrew]

I haven't found one specific to my service provider, hence...

[Scottmichaelj]

I haven't found one specific to my service provider, hence...

You try

http://cocoontech.com/forums/page/index.html

[Goose66]

Looks like the IQ-8s uses an "enroll" mode to learn the resistance and NO/NC setting for each zone. See here: https://qolsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/IQ-Hardwire-8-S-Quick-Guide.pdf

[Andrew]

13 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

You try

http://cocoontech.com/forums/page/index.html

 

Yes, but only 1 hit for Qolsys, no responses, sometime back in 2015...

[Andrew]

11 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Looks like the IQ-8s uses an "enroll" mode to learn the resistance and NO/NC setting for each zone. See here: https://qolsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/IQ-Hardwire-8-S-Quick-Guide.pdf

Saw that but the learning appears to take place only once the unit is wired, i.e. it says "a. All sensors must have a resistor installed between 1k-10k Ohm in either the N/O or N/C position" and the learning doesn't take place until pairing. I am trying to determine which sensors (out of 3 motion and 4 door) need resistors.

Not sure what happens if I hook it up without them, and they're needed.

[lilyoyo1]

I would contact your alarm mfg directly. This forum is dedicated to the ISY community and systems that work with the Isy such as the elk alarm system. 

The likelihood of finding someone on here that could help is probably non existent. Cocoontech is a more generalized forum so your chances are greater there. I would ask there as someone else may have gained knowledge over there to respond now. 

[Andrew]

It's more of a question regarding testing sensors than anything to do with the actual panel, but once operating, I'm interested in how I can integrate my Z-wave controls, along with a few other things (Alexa), which are, on some levels, compatible.

I'm making the assumption that testing resistance on sensor lines is identical regardless of which manufacturer the controls come from, so figured I'd give it a shot...

[gzahar]

1 hour ago, Andrew said:

It's more of a question regarding testing sensors than anything to do with the actual panel, but once operating, I'm interested in how I can integrate my Z-wave controls, along with a few other things (Alexa), which are, on some levels, compatible.

I'm making the assumption that testing resistance on sensor lines is identical regardless of which manufacturer the controls come from, so figured I'd give it a shot...

Per the guide that Goose66 linked to:

EOL Supervision: 1K to 10K Ohm
Input Zones: 8 (must have resistor)
Zone Type: N/O or N/C compatible

The resistors are a function of the control panel, not the sensors (which are generally just a n/o or n/c switch).

As indicated, each zone input will need a supervision resistor.

 

[Andrew]

I read that, but don't have the experience to know how to test properly, which I why I'm here.

However, I do know that there may be resistors in line on the circuit, perhaps with one on the switch (sensor), and one on the line.

 

[gzahar]

28 minutes ago, Andrew said:

I read that, but don't have the experience to know how to test properly, which I why I'm here.

However, I do know that there may be resistors in line on the circuit, perhaps with one on the switch (sensor), and one on the line.

 

Do you have an ohmmeter?  Something that will measure the resistance of your circuits.  You will need one if you are trying to find out if resistors are already in place (assuming you can't see them anywhere).  Also you can use this to find out if they are n/o or n/c circuits.

Are your 3 motion and 4 door sensors all wired separately to where you are going to connect them to the IQ8s?

Or are some of these sensors wired in series or parallel so that you have less than 7 pairs of wire?

[Scottmichaelj]

How “invested” in this Panel are you? Might be better to replace the panel with an Elk. Elk and ISY work flawlessly together. You should still be able to use most of the hardwired sensors, but not any wireless.

[DrLumen]

FYI, the EOL resistors are tamper/trouble switches so the panel can detect direct shorts or open circuits. If you hook up each zone to the panel and can't clear the trouble states then you likely don't have the EOL resistors on those circuits. As gzahar said, you should disconnect each zone from the panel and ring out each circuit with an ohmmeter. Don't try to use the ohmmeter on a powered circuit as you can easily damage your meter.

As to resetting the enrollment, if removing the power and battery doesn't reset it, there should be a reset button or set of jumpers onboard that will clear the memory.

[Scottmichaelj]

Love that the Elk panels via software have this built in.

[Andrew]

16 hours ago, gzahar said:

Do you have an ohmmeter?  Something that will measure the resistance of your circuits.  You will need one if you are trying to find out if resistors are already in place (assuming you can't see them anywhere).  Also you can use this to find out if they are n/o or n/c circuits.

Are your 3 motion and 4 door sensors all wired separately to where you are going to connect them to the IQ8s?

Or are some of these sensors wired in series or parallel so that you have less than 7 pairs of wire?

Thanks - Yes, I have a multimeter. I believe there is only 1 set (front door and entry door from garage) that are wired together for Zone 1.

15 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

How “invested” in this Panel are you? Might be better to replace the panel with an Elk. Elk and ISY work flawlessly together. You should still be able to use most of the hardwired sensors, but not any wireless.

Hi Scott - Most likely sticking with it, though I haven't installed it yet. I'm contracted with alarm.com, and don't see Elk listed as an "ecosystem partner". 

10 hours ago, DrLumen said:

FYI, the EOL resistors are tamper/trouble switches so the panel can detect direct shorts or open circuits. If you hook up each zone to the panel and can't clear the trouble states then you likely don't have the EOL resistors on those circuits. As gzahar said, you should disconnect each zone from the panel and ring out each circuit with an ohmmeter. Don't try to use the ohmmeter on a powered circuit as you can easily damage your meter.

As to resetting the enrollment, if removing the power and battery doesn't reset it, there should be a reset button or set of jumpers onboard that will clear the memory.

Thanks DrLumen - I'm not sure about the impact if may have if resistors are required (as stated in the "manual" and I hood the sensors up to the panel. It's only 12v, but couldn't that cause damage to the sensor(s)?

[Scottmichaelj]

Maybe do a bit of the math. How much to cancel alarm.com, the openness of Elk with tight integration with the ISY and possibly monthly savings using alarm relay/Watchlight. Might have upfront hit but breakeven over the timeframe. Just a thought.

[gzahar]

I assuming all the wires are hanging loose at this point and not connected to anything.  (see below regarding motion sensor power)

So I would use the multi meter to measure the resistance in each set of wires to the sensors (the open/close switch loop, not the lines for power on the motion sensors).

More than likely they are all n/c loops and should measure <100 ohms in normal condition allowing for resistance of the wire and sensors themselves.

In tripped conditions (open door or motion) they should measure open loop (the same reading your meter gives you when probes are not connected to anything).

If this is the case, you will need to add 1K to 10K resistor inline with one of the two sensor wires for each zone when connecting to IQ8S (as shown in the n/c loop example in the above guide).

If that is not what you are measuring on the meter, let me know.

 

The motion sensors should have an additional set of wires (each maybe depending on how they were wired) for power.

Do you have a way of powering the motion sensors and know which wires they are?

 

 

[gzahar]

By chance, did you happen to take a picture or write down how these sensors were connected to the previous control panel?

[DrLumen]

5 hours ago, Andrew said:

Thanks - Yes, I have a multimeter. I believe there is only 1 set (front door and entry door from garage) that are wired together for Zone 1.

Hi Scott - Most likely sticking with it, though I haven't installed it yet. I'm contracted with alarm.com, and don't see Elk listed as an "ecosystem partner". 

Thanks DrLumen - I'm not sure about the impact if may have if resistors are required (as stated in the "manual" and I hood the sensors up to the panel. It's only 12v, but couldn't that cause damage to the sensor(s)?

The inputs are for dry contacts. If you are not familiar with that term, it means that there is no voltage on that circuit except what is pushed from the panel. Whatever bus you have supplying power to your sensors should be separate and you wouldn't want to cross those as that would release the magic smoke.

So, if you look at the connections diagram for the N/O inputs you will see when the contact closes it causes what would be a direct short (theoretically 0 ohms). They take this into account so there would be no damage. If there were, your panel would only work once.

As I said, the resistors are for tamper/trouble conditions. For example, if a burglar were to try to break in and put a jumper around the input connections before the resistor on a  N/C loop input, if that were to blow the panel it is a crap alarm system.

So, to answer your question, no it won't hurt the panel as long as you don't try to feed external voltage into an input. You probably wont be able to clear the trouble conditions but it won't hurt the panel.

 

[Goose66]

While every alarm system I have ever had/seen has the EOL resistors in the alarm box, this is really just laziness and defeats the purpose of an EOL resistor. The EOL resistor has nothing to do with voltage or current - it is just there for the tamper detection. For example, in a N/C circuit (most common), if someone can, say, access your crawlspace and find your alarm wires, they could remove the insulation with a knife and short the two wires together. If the system has an EOL resistor at the end-of-the-line where it is supposed to be, shorting the wires would cause the panel to raise a tamper alarm. If the system has the EOL resistor in the alarm panel box where most of them are, then no tamper signal would be raised and the alarm would be defeated for that zone. Same with simply cutting the wire for a N/O circuit when the EOL resistor is inside the box.

Of course, I have never had a house with a crawlspace, so maybe that's why I have never seen EOL resistors installed at the EOL. I installed an alarm system in my parents house, and, in addition to putting a sensor on the crawlspace door, I also installed the EOL resistors at the end of each loop (covered in heatshrink tubing to hide the value) and it was kind of a pain for installation.