Reset ISY

[gbc3]

I have many Insteon devices but have been running into communication issues recently with my ISY when I added/moved around some keypads. In the ISY Console I can control all devices but there are a couple where when I try to write new updates to the devices ISY will say it cannot communicate. I assume I must've made a mistake when I replaced a dead PLM a couple years ago. I'm at the point now where I'm thinking of doing a hard reset on everything and starting from scratch. I've searched the forum and wondered what would be the best way to do it: 1) Delete all devices in ISY, factory resetting PLM and installing it as a new PLM, and "remove existing links" when adding devices (this way I could save my programs so I remember them) or 2) doing #1 except also hard reset ISY as well (not sure how to do this). Any help or other suggestions greatly appreciated!     

[Knjautomation]

May not be a PLM problem reset the Insteon devices giving the problem then reprogram them. 

[paulbates]

Reinstalling everything to the ISY seems like a lot of work.

• Start with basic insteon communications first. Assuming some of the devices are dual band, find the instructions for one of them and perform the 4 tap test for Insteon RF communications. Were all dualband devices in range?
   
• I would factory reset just the insteon devices that are having problems, right click on them in the admin console and pick restore device

Did trying that help?

Paul  

 

[gbc3]

Thanks for the suggestions. I actually wasn't aware of the 4 tap test. I also moved the PLM closer to the troubled keypads. They both flash red which I believe means they are on the same phase. I have tried to factory reset and restore the devices but the admin console says it cannot communicate with the devices. I'm able to query the devices and turn them on/off through the admin console. I'm just not able to write updates to the devices. I have tried to restore devices that are currently working fine but those also say that Isy cannot communicate. Any suggestions for next steps would be greatly appreciated!  

[paulbates]

Ok, those were the right things to try.

A couple more questions

• Are the added / new keypads on one circuit? that could be the common denominator, a noise problem on that circuit
  • Anything with a motor, transformer, TV or other electronics
• What version of ISY Firmware and Admin Console are you on?

At this point, more log data is needed. Can you

• Go to Tools/Diagnostics/Events
• Set logging level to 3 for device events
• pick any one of the keypads and try the restore

Post the log data here

Paul

[gbc3]

5 hours ago, paulbates said:

Ok, those were the right things to try.

A couple more questions

• Are the added / new keypads on one circuit? that could be the common denominator, a noise problem on that circuit
  • Anything with a motor, transformer, TV or other electronics

Unfortunately, ISY fails to communicate with ones that are on different circuits.

• What version of ISY Firmware and Admin Console are you on?

ISY Firmware v.4.7.3 (I'm not sure how to check version of Admin Console)

At this point, more log data is needed. Can you

• Go to Tools/Diagnostics/Events
• Set logging level to 3 for device events
• pick any one of the keypads and try the restore

Post the log data here

Here is the data for one of them that wouldn't restore. Interestingly enough, I was able to restore one that failed to communicate last night:

ISY log.pdf

Paul

Thanks!

 

[Brian H]

In the Help tab. The About choice.

It will display the Firmware and UI version and a few other items. Like any optional options are installed.

[paulbates]

2 more things:

1. The version of admin console and ISY FW have to match. Start there. The easiest way to get around this historic problem is with the new ISY Launcher. Please install this and give it a try and use it always on all of the systems you use to launch the AC. It will always launch the right version of admin console for your firmware. See if this fixes it, if not, move on. I don't think this is it, but needs to be eliminated and easy to address.
    
2. I think its more than that though. There's a significant number of these types of entries in your events:
   Sat 01/05/2019 11:40:51 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 22.F2.56-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0
   
   Hops in this case does refer to a tasty IPA. Its the number of times the Insteon network tries to reach a destination device by the message being repeated through other devices. As the message is repeated by another Insteon device, 1 is deducted from the number of hops. Getting to 0 means the message ran out of hops and Insteon gave up. The high number of them suggests that there is some type of noise, or bridging through rf can't work for some reason as the keypads were moved:
   
   - Hops ran out
   - 4 tap test shows that the phase bridging is not happening for those devices.
   
    

My thought is that one or more of the keypads was integral to bridging your Insteon phases in the past, and they all just happened to get moved to the same phase with the recent changes. If  have metal jboxes that the switches mount in,  its a major impediment to RF.  

I would either borrow, or use a spare, lamplinc/appliancelinc and move it around to different outlets and to see if you can get the 4 tap working or better results.  The "legacy" way to solve this was with a signallinc bridge in the electrical panel, but it doesn't look like they make it anymore. 

If its possible to move your PLM to be on a circuit near your electrical panel that would help. I installed an outlet on my panel and installed it right there.

I think the 4 tap from your previous post is saying something else. I would try some of those recommendations

            

 

Here are other diagnostic tips for comm problems

         

Paul

[gbc3]

Thanks for the link for the ISY laucher. I moved my PLM to an outlet connected right off of my panel. That seems to have helped a lot with the communications issues. I had issues with 3 8-button keypads (two recently installed ones and one old one) The old one I was now able to restore and it seems to be working flawlessly. It still doesn't light up with a 4 tap test from the PLM, though. The two new ones still say it fails to communicate but now most of the buttons control their scenes appropriately. Aside from a few buttons not working, the problem I am still having with them, though, is that the buttons will light up when ISY is programmed that they shouldn't. For instance, I have an "All Off" button as a controller on multiple keypads (including the problem ones). When I press "All Off" on any of them, all lights turn off. However, on my problem/new keypad, other button leds will light up even though ISY shows they should not. For instance, the "Kitchen" button is a responder in the "All Off" scene and is set to off. The actual Kitchen lights will turn off (as they should be) but the backlight led for the "Kitchen" button will either stay lit up or light up when I press "All Off." (Hope that makes sense).

 

Paul, thanks for the tips regarding lamplinc. I have one that I am using but I could borrow it for the testing. The 2 keypads I am having problems with both blink red during the 4 tap test from the PLM. Most of my devices will respond to the 4 tap test either same phase (red) or other phase (green). Sorry for the simple question but if I move the lamplinc to different outlets, what am I looking for? To see if they respond to the test? Help restore the problem keypads from ISY? Thanks for the help!   

[paulbates]

Thanks for the link for the ISY laucher. I moved my PLM to an outlet connected right off of my panel. That seems to have helped a lot with the communications issues. I had issues with 3 8-button keypads (two recently installed ones and one old one) The old one I was now able to restore and it seems to be working flawlessly. It still doesn't light up with a 4 tap test from the PLM, though. The two new ones still say it fails to communicate but now most of the buttons control their scenes appropriately. Aside from a few buttons not working, the problem I am still having with them, though, is that the buttons will light up when ISY is programmed that they shouldn't. For instance, I have an "All Off" button as a controller on multiple keypads (including the problem ones). When I press "All Off" on any of them, all lights turn off. However, on my problem/new keypad, other button leds will light up even though ISY shows they should not. For instance, the "Kitchen" button is a responder in the "All Off" scene and is set to off. The actual Kitchen lights will turn off (as they should be) but the backlight led for the "Kitchen" button will either stay lit up or light up when I press "All Off." (Hope that makes sense).
 
Paul, thanks for the tips regarding lamplinc. I have one that I am using but I could borrow it for the testing. The 2 keypads I am having problems with both blink red during the 4 tap test from the PLM. Most of my devices will respond to the 4 tap test either same phase (red) or other phase (green). Sorry for the simple question but if I move the lamplinc to different outlets, what am I looking for? To see if they respond to the test? Help restore the problem keypads from ISY? Thanks for the help!   

Sounds like good progress! Moving the lamplinc should get a signal closer to the affected keypads that aren’t behaving. The process is
- move the lamplinc. If you have an idea on how your circuits are laid out, try plugging it in to an outlet on the same circuit as the keypads. If not, you’ll have to try it a number of times until it magically starts working.
Or.. find an outlet that’s halfway between the keypads and the plm... that will support the rf signal reaching the keypads through your house.
- Then see if the keypads behave when you use restore device or write updates... did they update successfully? If yes, that’s the outlet
- if I’m right about the root cause, you’ll eventually find an outlet that helps the keypads. You’ll need to permanently leave a dual band device plugged in there.
- if I’m wrong, it’s probably something generating a lot of line noise like a transformer, tv, motor.

This process can be excruciating time wise, trying one outlet after another but once you find the “magic” outlet, it will be fixed, and support future Insteon installs.

I’ve gone through this with x10 and Insteon... once you find the right one (and it can be surprising which one) it will be fixed for good.

Paul


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[gbc3]

8 minutes ago, paulbates said:

Sounds like good progress! Moving the lamplinc should get a signal closer to the affected keypads that aren’t behaving. The process is
- move the lamplinc. If you have an idea on how your circuits are laid out, try plugging it in to an outlet on the same circuit as the keypads. If not, you’ll have to try it a number of times until it magically starts working.
Or.. find an outlet that’s halfway between the keypads and the plm... that will support the rf signal reaching the keypads through your house.
- Then see if the keypads behave when you use restore device or write updates... did they update successfully? If yes, that’s the outlet
- if I’m right about the root cause, you’ll eventually find an outlet that helps the keypads. You’ll need to permanently leave a dual band device plugged in there.
- if I’m wrong, it’s probably something generating a lot of line noise like a transformer, tv, motor.

This process can be excruciating time wise, trying one outlet after another but once you find the “magic” outlet, it will be fixed, and support future Insteon installs.

I’ve gone through this with x10 and Insteon... once you find the right one (and it can be surprising which one) it will be fixed for good.

Paul


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Thanks for the help. I'll have to get to work! Quick question though: When I'm moving the lamplinc to different outlets, should I reset the keypads each time? Or is it fine to just restore and see if the ISY fails to communicate? What's interesting is that I have many Insteon devices all around these two new ones, and the others seems to be working fine.

[paulbates]

You probably don’t need to reset. The fact that the misbehaving ones are in one area suggests that it could be a line noise problem. I’ve seen line noise preventing communication for both powerline and rf. Are there any electronics like tv/av, transformers or motors near the affected keypads? Low voltage transformers especially.

Paul



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[gbc3]

They're both in the kitchen on a circuit for just lights in the kitchen, living room and outdoor light. As far as I can tell there aren't any outlets on this circuit.

[paulbates]

LED lights or low voltage lights? If LEDs, can you remove the bulbs and retest communication from the ISY?


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[gbc3]

The main lights on this circuit are LEDs. Although, the kitchen does have LED strip lights under the cabinets. Those are close to the keypads (and coincidentally were installed around when I first tried to set up these keypads). Those light strips plug into an outlet on a different circuit. I'll try to test communication after removing the LEDs.