Use single 3-way switch (i.e. single pole/dual throw with Micro Module to act as Dual Momentary

[Jimini]

I just received my first On/Off Module and am trying to understand the wiring diagrams. As the manual describes, if one uses this Insteon switch with a conventional latching switch, then the new operation of the manual switch becomes very unusual, i.e. if the state of the light is changed remotely, then the manual switch much flip its state twice to change the state of the light.  The manual describes the 3-way Toggle Mode where this is not true.  Presumably this is intended for a true 3-way arrangement, i.e. 2 manual switches controlling a light.  My question is can this same mode be implemented with only one manual switch such that the manual switch will operate such that changing its state always changes the state of the light independent of any intervening action of the Micro Module?  

There is no wiring diagram in the manual for the 3-Way Toggle Mode and I also don't know actually what the operation of the two sense wires is so it is difficult to be clear how or if what I want to accomplish can be done.  

Has anyone tried this? Can it be done?

[Brian H]

Normally in an Insteon setup. You need both switches changed in a three way setup. To Insteon switches linked together and both having a Line and Neutral connection. One also with a Load connection. Sometimes using one of the traveler wires between the two original manual switches.

You want to use both original switches and use them to control the Sense Inputs of a On/Off Module?

[oberkc]

This is something that I have not personally done, but it seems reasonably clear from the manual.  You would treat this as a “latching” mode switch and keep you existing two switches wired as before, with the switched hot wire (the one connected to the fixture) connected instead to the sense wire.  You would need to find a hot and neutral as well to connect to the respective connections.  Depending on where hot is introduced into your circuit, this may or may not require additional wires.

If you are not confident that you can identify the correct wires at the fixture box, feel free to describe them here and we can help you figure it out.  P,ease provide number of cables coming into fixture box, the number and color or each conductor within each cable, and to what they are currently connected.  If you currently have two or more cables, each with two conductors (black and white), you should be able to use the insteon module without additional wiring.  If you only have a single cable entering the fixture box, you would have to install the micro module in one of the switch boxes.

[Jimini]

Thank you Brain H and oberkc for the reply.  I don't think I explained clearly what I would like to do.  I don't have a 3-way configuration now.  I have one manual switch, well actually it's an old X10 switch, that controls one overhead light.  I want to replace this X10 switch with a Micro Module and a manual switch.  The reason I am going to the trouble of using a Micro Module plus a manual switch instead of just an Insteon Toggle Switch or an Insteon Rocker switch is because neither of those are available in ivory.  Our whole house has ivory switches and my wife doesn't like the idea of even a white toggle sticking out of an ivory face plate.  So I can get an old fashion manual ivory switch (I have plenty in a box in the garage) and use that plus the Micro Module to give us a remote ivory switch in this location.  

Now if I follow the instructions to instal a single pole/single throw switch (i.e. a 1-way switch or what the Insteon manual calls a latching switch, the manual operation is different than normal manual switches.  I explained that initially so I won't repeat it.  It should work but others are going to find it funky and initially a person will think the switch doesn't work when they flip it to the opposite position and nothing happens.  

So I am wondering if it is possible to take instead a 3-way switch, i.e. a single pole/double throw switch and wire it up sort of as a three way configuration but with only one manual switch and the Micro Module.  Then the manual switch might operate sort of as what Insteon calls a Dual Momentary, i.e. each flip of the switch to the opposite position will cause the state of the light to change.  The wiring diagram for the Dual Momentary looks like that might work.  It shows three wires going to the switch and the 3-way switch has three terminals, one normally for line and the other two going to the other switch and the other switch feeding the load back to the neutral.  But in that case the full current flows to the other switch.  In the case of this Dual Momentary diagram,  I'm sure it's only a trickle current going to the two sense wires and I don't know how those sense wires operate.  In the case of the Dual Momentary, does the Micro Module expect the line voltage to be applied to the sense wires only momentarily or will it be applied continuously once the button is pressed?  In the case of my 3-Way switch, the line voltage will be applied continuously to either one sense wire or the other depending upon the position of the 3-way switch.  

I hope I have explained myself more clearly here.  

PS:  I don't have any trouble determining which wires are line, neutral or load.  I'm not an electrician but an experimental physicist by occupation and work with electronics and electrical circuits quite often.

[oberkc]

I do not believe you will need to flip a switch twice change state, as it appears from post 1 that you fear.  From the manual (underlines are mine):

"Because Micro module comes programmed for latching switches, 3-way toggle mode is enabled by default. Normally, a latching switch reads the switch’s up position as on and down position as off. For example, if you turn Micro module on from the latching switch and off from another controller, the switch is still in the up (on) position; turning Micro module back on from the switch would require you to tap the switch down, then up again. The 3-way toggle mode overrides this sense feature, so in that same scenario—turning Micro module on at the switch and off from another controller, so switch is in up (on) position—you could then turn Micro module on at the switch by tapping it down. "

From this, I would say that flipping the mechanical switch once, regardless of the original position of the switch, or the original state of the fixture, will cause the state of the fixture to change.

Quote

In the case of the Dual Momentary, does the Micro Module expect the line voltage to be applied to the sense wires only momentarily or will it be applied continuously once the button is pressed?

Yes, the micro module expects a "momentary" voltage. 

PS...so you are a Leonard Hofstadter?

[Jimini]

That full excerpt from the manual is what I found confusing.  When I states: Normally, a latching switch reads the switch’s up position as on and down position as off. For example, if you turn Micro module on from the latching switch and off from another controller, the switch is still in the up (on) position; turning Micro module back on from the switch would require you to tap the switch down, then up again...", I took it to mean that was the normal operating mode of this Micro Module with a latching switch.  It sounded to me that this 3-way toggle mode was yet a different mode of operating the combined Micro Module plus manual switch, but then didn't go on to describe how to put it into that mode.  So your understanding is that it is stating that by following the wiring diagram for a latching switch, the 3-way toggle mode will actually be realized.  I can go with that.  If the Micro Module expects only momentary voltages from a momentary switch, then I agree that my idea won't work.  I will try wiring my switch according to the latch switch diagram tomorrow.  

Thanks for your help especially in clarifying the meaning of the manual.  And no, I am not Leonard Hofstadter, but did enjoy that program, especially the physics jokes they threw in occassinsaly, jokes that one had to have studied some physics to appreciate.  I also found Leonard's character name interesting in that as an undergraduate years ago I worked at a lab which had Robert Hofstadter as its director.  

[mwester]

Or you could just post here to see if anyone has an ivory paddle they might be willing to sell for cheap...

[Jimini]

Not good enough.  Must be an ivory toggle to keep things smooth here.  Were those made at one time?  

Is there a posting area for swapping, etc.?

 

[oberkc]

7 hours ago, Jimini said:

Were those made at one time?

Yes, they were.  I have a bunch throughout my house.  Still, if someone places a very high value on consistency, I am not even sure that the ivory switch will satisfy.  They have a little LED light which causes them to stand apart from the standard mechanical versions.

[Jimini]

Hey, oberkc, 

Now you have me wondering if what I already have will work.  Some years ago, I converted my X10 switches in the kitchen and family room to a newer toggle version just for the aesthetics.  The fact that it has a little LED light under the toggle didn't mean too much at the time.  So now I tried pushing the little button where the LED is and it beeps like an Insteon switch.  I took of the face plate but there is no Insteon address.  The model number is X10WS4671.  I thought these were just X10 switches.  Are they also Insteon capable?  I can't find any reference to them on the SmartHome website but there is a forum discussion about using this switch on a Halogen light dating back to 2012.  

Is this the same switch you are using as an Insteon one?  

[oberkc]

No.  Not the same switch, unfortunately.  Mine are the “togglelincs”.  Part number is likely 2466.

I notice that they still have some on amazon.  They are dimmer versions.  I do not see the relay version on amazon.

[Jimini]

Thanks, I thought that was going to be too easy.  I will try to install this Micro Module if I can get it to fit in the switch box.  

But thanks for all the help and suggestions. 

 

[oberkc]

Note, also, that there are “ivory” and there are “almond”.  One is lighter in color that the other.  This may be important if you are trying to accurately match an existing switch.

[paulbates]

One more note is that togglincs are powerline, single band only

[Jimini]

Hi All,

I got the Micro Module installed and linked to my ISY.  It appears to be operating correctly and without the need for double flipping the toggle as I thought would be the case.  I had to really jam it into the switch socket along with the simple manual switch.  It is just barely narrow enough to slide into the box but the issue becomes how many wires and wire nuts are also in the back of the box.  I was finally using the two screws that hold the manual switch in place to pull that switch into place pushing the Micro Module further back against the wires.  The manual notes that the Micro Module can get warm but that is within code specs.  I hope those specs don't assume a lot of air space between the Micro Module and wires and manual switch.  I will keep a watch on  this for a while. 

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions.  I'm sorry I had to first needlessly raise the question about wiring for the 3-Way Toggle mode, but the wording for that in the manual was not clear  to me.  And as one of you pointed out, in the long run it is probably better to have the Micro Module being dual band rather than the white or ivory Insteon Toggle which is only single band.  

Thanks again,

Jimini

 

[marietteachrist]

No I didn't try this.